Proposed European Offshore Supergrid. Seems like a great idea to improve the feasability of Wind Energy

Here (pdf)

Thoughts???

IMO 20bn will turn out to be quite conservative figure.  Jérôme à Paris reports for 378mln.euro for a 165MW offshore wind farm (2.3 mln/MW), that does not have anything like hundreds of miles of interconnecting HVDC transmission lines.

Considering that all of this will be to produce the energy equivelent of a couple of the latest nuclear reactors... what should my comments be? Another episode from the european fiction of achieving energy independance with the wrong technologies.

Now having said all of this you will be surprised that I would still support the project. Wind can help the european energy balnce, but betting [almost] all chips on it is plainly stupid.

Well, those wind turbines in place today, producing electricity today, have one charming advantage - they actually exist. The same applies to PV systems.

Sometimes, I wonder how lead times work into this debate - what is the lead time for a nuclear reactor? How long before the unspecified wish today becomes electricity?

Wind and solar do not share one of the deepest flaws surrounding new nuclear plants - wind and solar can be installed now, in increments. Nuclear means waiting - and when the question is how do you provide power today, or next month, or next year, for all their clearly defined limitations, wind and solar at least are producing electricity. Nuclear fails that test utterly.

And let's not even get into the whole future aspect either - no one is seriously concerned about dealing with worn out turbines or dead PV panels either.

Lead time for a 3rd gen reactor is supposed to be 5 years.

But the Finns, who are building the first one, are as much as 18 months behind, AFAIK.

So say 5 years+ 6 months, plus site planning.  In the UK a public planning enquiry (to make a like for like comparison with wind) which can add up to 3 years (but say 18 months).

I would say, realistically, on a crash programme, 8 years.  The French (EDF) at Flamanville, an existing site, are talking 2014 for commercial power from their first 3rd Gen reactor.

There is as yet no solution to the UK waste problem. Private industry has said it will not build these things without:

  •  a guaranteed power price (this is why British Energy went broke, and nearly had to be renationalised)
  • a long term solution to the waste problem

The former is no different from wind power (except: if we impute a CO2 price of £85/ tonne, £311/ tonne of carbon, which is what the Stern Report suggests, then the economics of both look good against fossil fuel).

Nuclear waste repository is a show stopper.

If we ran a centralised electricity system where the financial risk is passed off to the consumer, and if the nuclear reactor industry, the utility, and the regulator work closely together, then we would be France.  And we might get a sizeable nuclear reactor programme at a reasonable price.

So far, none of the above exist in the UK.  Nor would it be possible to renationalise the electricity supply system-- the Torys very specifically made sure that would be practically impossible for a future Labour Government (because Labour threatened to do just that).

After Seabrook, I don't think too many entities, corporate or government, will want to dive into that battle anytime soon. And if they did, there would certainly be no guarantees of eventual victory, no matter what the time line or costs.
What the US utility execs have said is that they will go for nuclear, if they get a guaranteed subsidy for the power (which the Bush Energy Act gives them) and comfort on the waste disposal issue.

TXU has applied for nuclear.  Given that they have also applied to build 10 coal plants, I am cheering their nuclear efforts on.  Once those nuclear plants are switched on, they will be run, and will displace fossil fueled plant.

I think some US states (like Texas) will prove to be much more nuclear friendly than New England or New York.

How long does it take until the holding tanks of those reactors are full and what will they do if there is still no processing plant built anywhere?

We have heard the nuclear argument before. We know what is missing. Nothing has changed with regard to processing and disposal.

Dry cask storage could hold spent fuel for decades, and it's only a few centuries before it's less radioactive than uranium ore.

Storage would be considerably less complicated due to the properties of thorium.  Th-232 captures a neutron and (through two beta decays) becomes U-233.  It takes another FOUR neutron captures to turn U-233 into U-237, which can decay into neptunium; another neutron capture is required to create Np-238 which decays to plutonium.  To get there, all the intermediates have to avoid being fissioned by any of the neutrons.  The consequence is that the spent fuel of a thorium reactor would have only minuscule amounts of plutonium.

Thanks for the rundown.

Nuclear is an alternative - with extemely heavy political brakes on. Until people can agree on what to do with the waste and that Pu is not evil if managed properly and fuel recycling is established (which would be economically devastating for Uranium mining...) nuclear is not a viable option.

And now we factor in the growth and projected price slump of PV... by the time nuclear lifts a leg, PV and conservation have run circles around the block.

In a year or two PV will deliver the equivalent of one nuclear reactor a year. At a 30% growth rate that looks like follows:

  1. 1.0 reactor, cumulative 2.0 reactors
  2. 1.3 reactors, cumulative 3.3 reactors
  3. 1.7 reactors, cumulative 5.0 reactors
  4. 2.2 reactors, cumulative 7.2 reactors
  5. 2.9 reactors, cumulative 10.1 reactors
  6. 3.7 reactors, cumulative 13.8 reactors
  7. 4.8 reactors, cumulative 18.6 reactors
  8. 6.2 reactors, cumulative 24.8 reactors
  9. 3.3 reactors, cumulative 28.1 reactors
  10. 8.2 reactors, cumulative 36.3 reactors
  11. 10.6 reactors, cumulative 46.9 reactors
  12. 13.8 reactors, cumulative 60.7 reactors
  13. 17.9 reactors, cumulative 78.6 reactors

Now add another 50 reactors saved by conservation measures.
Is the world going to build 130 new reactors until 2020?
And replacing the old ones is not even factored in, yet.

Which politician wants to run on the nucleat ticket?

Two years back I was earning 10K/year, last year it was 20K and today I'm making 40. I find it self-evindent that in just 10 years I will be making $4.096 mln/year, which in 20 years will grow to well above 4 billion a year.
Can you give a source for those numbers? This table...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics#Worldwide_installed_photovoltaic_totals

...shows what looks like about 1GWE (peak power) installed wordwide in 2005. That's about 1 reactor at peak, or maybe 30% of a reactor allowing for daily cycles and seasonality.

Are you numbers peak output or annual average?

Note that this source http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/electricity.html gives world electricity consumption of 14800E9 kWh in 2003. There are about 8000 hours in a year, so let's say a nice round CONSTANT 24/7/365 load of 2000 gigawatts. So by 2020, on your projections, solar PV could be producing 4% of the 2003 average demand (or 2% of 2020 demand on the EIA's estimate). Assuming the solar cells never age, of course. And assuming the supply chain doesn't get bottlenecked somewhere.

My rule of thumb for electricity prices (wholesale, distribution adds another 4 cents/kwhr) is (US dollars) for new capacity:

  • nuclear - 8 cents/ kwhr (case can be made long term why that might fall towards 7 cents)

  • onshore wind - 4-9 cents

  • offshore wind - 5-11 cents

  • CCGT - 4 cents (depends massively on gas price)

  • Coal - c. 5 cents (higher capital cost than CCGT, but much lower fuel cost)

  • IGCC Coal - c. 6 cents

  • solar - 15 cents (in some applications)

Carbon sequestration will add 1-5 cents/ kwhr to coal and CCGT.

You can see that no one would build anything other than coal and (a little) gas turbine power unless you have carbon pricing.

In practice no one source solves it.  You can see how the UK can get to 20% wind, but its hard to see, practically, without new power storage technologies, how we would get to more than that.

Thanks for numbers.  Very useful.

I assume this is total Capital construction and operating costs to provide electricity at rates you quote.  If your costs are only construction than the monthly consumable cost on coal and NG are variables that will increase in the future.

In any case what the costs don't include are the carbon implications (that you show need to be included for parity with wind) but also the unseen costs of obtaining the coal and NG supply.  IMHO one of the reasons coal is so cheap is that the environmental impacts of coal mining are delayed way into the future.  Before 1981 or '82 strip mining operations had 7 years to return the land to similar vegetation as before mining.  Under the Reagan administration that time frame was delayed to (I think) 20 years.  This means a lot of natural weathering can occur on the spoils piles before they need to be re-vegetated. I remember this because I interviewed at a company that had a huge business in using plants to reclaim disturbed land.  They went bankrupt 5 years or so later because their entire business model disappeared.

The reason the 7 years was tough on strip miners is that you need specialized plants to be the first communities to establish.  Lots of heavy metals and acids that require phytosequestration to clean up the soil allowing conventional plants to grow.  After twenty years the soils are leeched and lots of stuff will grow.  The problem is, where does the leech water go?  It may run off or it may be contained and go down.  In all cases it is going to impact aquafers negatively.  These costs are then picked up by entities other than the miners. This keeps the cost of coal cheap but adds to the other problems of burning coal

Don't get me wrong, I think coal mining is a valid way to provide energy.  I am just of the opinion that it can be done in a much less ecologically destructive way, albeit at a higher cost.  But the rules and framework have to apply (and apply to all) or there is no incentive for the operations that want to do things right.  They have a lot of added costs without being able to ask more for the coal.  More likely the price for coal will go down if we allow the "most efficient" ways of extraction to be used without regard to down stream consequences.

Those numbers are very 'rough and ready'!!!

(some of the people who post around here who are pro nuke use much lower numbers 4 cents even).

A massive factor is capital cost-- even in a gas fired CCGT, where fuel is half the lifecycle cost, capital costs matter.  Change the real interest rate (interest rate after inflation) and nuclear and wind look a lot worse, or a lot better.

This is why gas turbines took off in the 90s.  Gas was cheap, and capital costs were the most important costs.  There was also an important efficiency shift (the Combined Cycle bit) which raised efficiencies from c. low 40%s to nearly 60% now.  Gas is however no longer cheap.  

Conversely nuclear plants wound up being delayed by several years, and in the high inflation/ high real interest rate environment of the late 70s and 80s, that meant their total costs were several times initial estimates.

If we can assume a world where nuclear plants really do get built on budget, in 5 years, then nuclear will look a lot cheaper but you will still have the waste problem and cost.

Good point about the true cost of coal.  I think most US power coal now comes from the Powder River Basin Wyoming, which has low sulphur coal and high productivity open-pit mining.  One of the big costs is then rail transport, whereas ocean transport of Australian coal is relatively cheap.

I think Appalachian coal is a decreasing fraction of coal consumption except for coking coal and for power stations that are very close to source.

The reality is, ex environmental considerations, any US utility (virtually) would rather build a coal fired station.  The risk is low, the technology proven, and the economics straightforward.

I think Appalachian coal is a decreasing fraction of coal consumption except for coking coal and for power stations that are very close to source.

I live near the Ohio River at the WV/ Ohio border and I was confused when I first moved here by the fact that coal moves in both directions on the Ohio River.  There must be at least 5 to 10 coal barges with 12 full containers each going downriver from WV daily.  This really surprised me at first until it was explained to me that Iowa coal is brought upriver to WV to mix this expensive low sulfur coal with the inexpensive high sulfur WV coal so WV and Ohio coal burning plants can use their cheap coal and not have to use expensive scrubbers.  Also WV coal is shipped to Iowa and other places and mixed with their coal in plants there.  Cost/ benefit ratios force everyone to keep their sulfur emissions right at the legal limit even if it creates absurdities like shipping dirty WV coal west where coal is plentiful and cleaner.

Hey Phineas,
Whatever happened to Free-Wheelin Franklin & Fat Freddy?
Conversely nuclear plants wound up being delayed by several years, and in the high inflation/ high real interest rate environment of the late 70s and 80s, that meant their total costs were several times initial estimates.

In countries without such activist capital sabotage, you have very inexpensive nuclear power, and it is good to remember that nuclear plants have operational lifetimes of over 40 years, often 60.
If we can assume a world where nuclear plants really do get built on budget, in 5 years, then nuclear will look a lot cheaper but you will still have the waste problem and cost.

But nuclear waste costs almost nothing to manage. You stick it in a pool for a couple of years then stick it in concrete in a parking lot. The largest cost that US nuclear plants have to pay in regards to waste is the tax for the geologic repository that is still not built.

PS yes this is total cost, so the discount factor you use (to compare the high capital costs of a wind station with the future fuel costs of a gas fired station) is massively important.

Once the thing is built, and once the debt raised to finance it is paid off or discharged, then the operating costs are massively cheap.

This is especially true for nuclear (pure maintenance and fuel costs probably 1-2 cents/kwhr) and wind (free fuel, minimal maintenance, complete replacement every 20 years).

But is also true of coal (probably the operating costs are c. 2.5-3 cents/ kwhr).

You say that there are a log of heavy metals in the remanders from coal mining.  Since to my knowledge coal is a result of vegetation decomposition (under pressure?), and heavy metals are generally toxic to most cells, whence the heavy metals?
CA is building 3GW solar, geothermal etc..

The economics argument is useless. We are talking about politics here. If the voter votes for it, clean energy is going to be built, even if it costs 10 cents more per kWh.

I certainly can afford to pay that much. So can many others.

"The economics argument is useless. We are talking about politics here. If the voter votes for it, clean energy is going to be built, even if it costs 10 cents more per kWh.

I certainly can afford to pay that much. So can many others."

Unless they ban coal fired generation or impose carbon taxes, the voter has nothing to do with it.  It boils down to a straight economic evaluation.  Utilities have to install the most cost effective option, which will usually be coal.

Also, overwhelmingly, people will not willingly pay a single penny more per kwh, if they have a cheaper (dirtier) option.  Did you notice how poorly the green energy companies did trying to sell their higher priced, cleaner electricity?

I am a big fan of a carbon tax, but I see no chance of it happening in the US.

The lead time for this project will also measure in quite a few years. There are no easy options for obtaining our energy.
So 20bn Euro is 10k GW of capacity.

Now at a load factor of 30% (conservative for offshore) that is:

26,280 Gwhrs or 26.2 TWhrs  (7.5% of annual UK consumption).

At a Load Factor of 80%, equivalent to 3.75GW of nuclear capacity.

At the same price as Sizewell B, that would cost (historic cost so ignoring inflation) about £16bn or 21bn euros.

I would be optimistic that we could build 1GW of nuclear capacity for, say, £2bn, so £8bn.  But that's a forecast, not a certainty (and the technology is much more complex than that required for offshore wind).

And we don't have a waste disposal solution.  So you have to price that into the above, on top of the above.  As well as a decontamination liability (not the same thing).

So I agree with you 20bn euros is light for a wind power solution, but it is not the case that nuclear provides a radically cheaper alternative.

At the same price as Sizewell B

I guess if these wind turbines are built by the same guys that built Sizewell B the price tag will be ~40bn. The Russians are builfing their nukes for $1.5-2 bln/a reactor, so I suggest invite them to build the wind turbines too.

And we don't have a waste disposal solution.

This is pretty ridiculous and politicized problem. Technically if left to the private sector, a long-term storage would be built for some couple of bn without all that fuss it is gathering around it. BUt since now it is in govenments hands it is used to earn cheap political dividents by playing on the "insolvable nuclear waste problem" tune all over again.

I have often said - once the shortages start the plants will be built anyway. I leave it up to you to decide whether the time wasted in meaningless debates now will help them to be built safely.


At the same price as Sizewell B
I guess if these wind turbines are built by the same guys that built Sizewell B the price tag will be ~40bn. The Russians are builfing their nukes for $1.5-2 bln/a reactor, so I suggest invite them to build the wind turbines too.

Your point about wind turbines is a straw man, and irrelevant as such.

The people who build wind turbines in the North Sea, will be the same people who built offshore oil structures in the North Sea.  The turbine part is a fast-developing, but proven technology.  The construction part has been proven, but in a different industry, with different applications.

It's worth noting: the private sector will finance offshore wind structures (with appropriate subsidies reflecting carbon costs), it will not finance nuclear power stations without effective guarantees from the central government.

On Sizewell B I was actually a little offended by that remark.  The nuclear builders I met were professional and careful engineers.  It was the first (and so far only) British pressurised water reactor, and so there was not the advantage of learning efficiencies.

Sizewell C, had it been built, might have cost half as much.  But that would have necessitated maintaining the Non Fossil Fuel Obligation (the 'nuclear levy') and the pressure from consumers and industry was for lower electricity tariffs.

The technology is expensive on a life cycle cost basis.  You can't avoid that conclusion, however much you seek to blame it on individuals and organisations.

The Russians:

- given they orchestrated some of the worst environmental crimes of the 20th century, and the worst nuclear accident ever recorded, I don't trust them to build nuclear reactors.  Yes we are in a post-Soviet world, but this is still a society which is not open, obsessively secretive and centrally controlled, has no reference to minority stakeholder and shareholder rights.  Not the people with whom to entrust a sensitive and complex technology with longterm environmental consequences.

On $ v. £ costs, however you mark it, the tendency is for UK construction costs (in £s) to equal those (in $s) of other jurisdictions.  There are a host of reasons for this (it's true in housebuilding and commercial construction as well AFAIK) which seem to stem from: the UK's restrictive planning, UK labour practices, high cost of skilled construction labour in the UK v. other countries.

The point then becomes how much of the thing you are building can be manufactured rather than constructed ie fabricated off site.  Manufacturing costs are more or less common across the planet (give or take transport costs).

In the case of a wind turbine, and possibly an offshore structure, a lot.

Less in the case of a nuclear power plant, but hopefully more than was historically the case.

The problem then is if you build a generation of reactors on essentially the same design, manufactured rather than customised on site, then if it turns out that 5,10,25 years down the track there was a design fault you lose all your reactors at once.

So far this hasn't happened to the French.  It has to the Japanese.

(the same is true of a wind farm station, and indeed it has happened, but you can replace an individual unit much more easily)

On nuclear waste: no private sector company could 'solve' it, because no company can take on an unquantifiable liability, infinite in time.  Companies have gone broke because of just that problem (asbestos, toxic chemical dumps etc.).  In the end, this is a pure case of market failure, and you have to have government intervention.

(the same will be true of Carbon Capture and Storage-- the government will have to underwrite the risk of a leak from a long term geologic depository).


I have often said - once the shortages start the plants will be built anyway. I leave it up to you to decide whether the time wasted in meaningless debates now will help them to be built safely.

It is precisely the urge to rush, without adequate attention to building public consensus, which got the nuclear industry into this pickle in the first place, with enormous long tail liabilities.  It was an industry founded in the Cold War, on secretiveness, and on a blind faith in engineering technology.

There is a (good) case for more nuclear.  But if that case is not made, and made correctly (ie not because its cheap, but necessary in an age of Carbon Emission control), then when the first (or second, or third) bumps are hit further down the road, the public support will evaporate.

We could be left with another generation of half-finished nuclear power plants, dotting the landscape.

There needs to be at least a Parliamentary Inquiry, if not a Royal Commission, to build all-party support for the nuclear option.  The government is mistaken to try to do this by stealth, bypassing Parliament.

If we start that process now, then a new generation of plants could be operational by 2020.

So far this hasn't happened to the French.  It has to the Japanese.

I am trying hard to understand where your point lies. We have (actually more than one) proven and relatively low-cost reactor designs. If our goal is to fix the energy balance 10 or 15 years down the road all we need is take and mass-produce them. It is hardly a time for experiments right now. I understand UK's experience is not such, but this problem as far as I am concerned is up to UK to handle.

Of course the technology may evolve in the meantime (as with 3rd generation reactors) but this naturally will take much more time than those 10-15 years.

As for the Russian remark - this time I feel a little bit offended. I have had contacts with the russian engineering school and if you can accept a personal judjement it stands  quite above its western counterpart. It is largely the rotten economic and political system these people were put in after graduation that caused all the troubles we know of. For example the RBMK reactor (as the one in Chernobyl) was largely developed for military reasons, we all know of the deliberate radiation exposures of civilians during the Cold War, etc.

As for the alternatives - people are largely dismissing the fact that wind power has not yet grown to the point where the fundamental deficiencies of the technology will start kicking in a big time. Just like anything else it is also subject to deminishing returns. I think we should definately make use of the "low-hanging fruit", but not rely on it to get us any farther than that.

LevinK;
  Though I regularly come out firmly against Nuclear as it now stands, I do appreciate that there is a great potential in some version of the technology, if it gets through the safety hurdles that now surround it, and I'm still curious to know where the new research is going.  

  The Thorium Reactor article was appealing, tho' it didn't go into the chemistry/physics at all.  Do you have a sense of the arguments for/against Thorium, and the challenges the technology faces (beyond getting research funds, which of course might be the facet blocking the first question from even having an answer yet..

Regards,
Bob Fiske

One thing to keep in mind is that with global warming, there is likely to be a rise in sea level. Wind direction may also change. While this may not be an issue in the near future, the builders of the wind turbines will want to take this into account in their design. It may also further argue against putting all of one's eggs in a single basket.