159 comments on Modeling Oil Depletion Using EIA Data - The Tiger Chasing its Tail?
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159 comments on Modeling Oil Depletion Using EIA Data - The Tiger Chasing its Tail?
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But second, look at this from the peak oil skeptic perspective. Skeptics have long predicted that as oil became scarce and prices rose, we'd see several effects. One is moderation of demand, which is coming into play now. The second is increased production of conventional oil, which may or may not be happening. And the third is increased production of alternatives, which is definitely going on, with tar sands, coal to liquid, work on biodiesel, and of course ethanol.
All these are the reasons why skeptics said that the core predictions of extreme peak oilers, of social and economic collapse, "die off", all these apocalyptic scenarios, were false. Skeptics predicted that society would adapt and find alternatives. And this is reflected in the issue you raise. As we continue to develop alternative liquid fuels, a higher precentage of our total production will be in this form. If skeptics are right, this will allow us to smoothly adjust to the decreased availability of conventional oil by finding ever more efficient ways of producing these alternatives. The magic of the market will do its work and we can sail right through the classical Hubbert peak without even noticing it.
otoh, demand continues, especially in asia but here, too. Prices seem unlikely to decline much in the near future.
Which measure equates to crude? Neither... Crude is probably regular plus deepwater and polar - which wouldn't be anything like as late as 2010.
No, it doesn't. My bet is that what will happen is people will crowd together. It's only very recently that the 2,000 or 3,000 or 5,000 SF home has become the standard for a family of three or four. My parents had 4-5 siblings, and grew up in two or three bedroom houses. With one bathroom. Amazing but true.
When people have lost their jobs or can't afford gasoline to drive to work, the last thing they are going to be doing is buying new homes. No, instead they will be moving in with friends or relatives. The extended family living together in a fairly small house used to be the norm. It will be again.
Already, people in my office with long commutes are hinting about renting the spare room in my small apartment. (I live walking distance from the office.)
The inner burbs must increase in density for those that rely on feet, bikes or public transport. Zoning and codes are obstacles to density, but they can be adjusted - formally or informally. I'm wondering about infilling between houses. I used to draw townhouses, and the site planners always left addresses for the spaces between row house blocks. I couldn't imagine anyone filling in back then, but I can now.
I'm also wondering which buildings will be adapted to serve as local schools for kids too far from the mammoth schools we've been putting up.
I could see the outer suburbs becoming a spacious paradise for those that can still afford to drive that far. Exurban highways might become less-traveled and convenient for long commutes, but maintaining them will be expensive. Alan would want money for urban rail while Mr. Big would want the highways kept smooth for his Rolls-Skoda.
I suspect that many of the empty nesters will see their kids coming home out of necessity. This will boost communal meals, carpooling, per capita heating/lighting efficiency, etc. That is another way of demand destruction. It's very common in Europe to have kids staying at home until they get married or well into their 30s.
The single person household will be one of the first causalties of PO.
Interesting reading material:
http://realestate.msn.com/improve/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=353659
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05080/474759.stm
http://www.ci.cambridge.ma.us/~cdd/data/demo/city/hhsize_2000.html
The advent of suburbia is a result of more land (and secondarily resources) available for a smaller number of people. Granted, US population has still increased overall, but our surplus of land still remains.
Your concept of the extended family moving in together is reasonable, but I wonder whether you have taken into account the counterbalance that as it gets more expensive to commute long distances, suburban houses will become cheaper, ironically being a great place to live for those who don't have to commute. We're not just going to tear the suburbs down. And neither can current urban environments support all of the people living in suburbia (even if they move in with family members, there are limits). I guess we could live like people in India or something, but I find that to be unlikely.
I think we'll see a move toward some consolidation. Suburbs that are an extreme distance away from urban centers will languish and die (I guess those who can afford to live out there will be able to have a massive estate, rather than a small 1/4 acre plot), but those within reasonable distance 20 miles or so, will not. Greatly we're going to see increases in transportation efficiency. We can improve our transportation system by a lot and reduce a lot of our use of fossil fuels. People haven't even really started to move away from gas guzzlers. We clearly have much room for improvement.
Much, if not most, of the new housing in the US is suburban or exurban, but there are already some counter-trends happening around the country. A number of cities, especially along the West Coast and in New York and Chicago, are seeing lots of new high-rise residential towers go up. "Transit villages" are springing up around inner-urban and suburban communities. Some of the mature "Edge Cities", like Hacienda Business Park in the Bay Area and Tyson's Corner in Virginia, are diversifying their land uses beyond just offices to add dense housing, hotels, and the like. Finally, a number of suburbs which have an old-fashioned district are trying to revitalize them by "main street"-type programs. These trends, along with the others people mentioned, could become more pronounced as the oil peak (or the liquid peak) is passed. A traditional virtue of cities, which is to maximize access while minimizing energy and transport costs, may once again shape urban form much more strongly than in the past 50 years or so.
It is true that we have a huge fixed capital investment in suburban buidings and infrastructure, but it is also true that that infrastructure will require huge ongoing investment if it is to stay in a state of good repair. If oil peaks, transportation investments (of whatever is left to invest) could be shifted from highways to reviving rail services, as many of the rail lines still exist. Transit routes could be established, or reestablished, between new nodes.
Buildings, too require reinvestment; Stewart Brand, in his "How Buildings Learn", noted that buildings need a big reinvestment at an age of about 40 years, as roofs, siding, plumbing, and other components wear out. Post-peak, some buildings, expecially the most remote and energy-intensive ones (i.e. offices without operable windows) may no longer be worth the trouble, and abandoned or dismantled to build other buildings. Other single-use buildings may be adapted to new uses, and "grayfields" -- suburban parking lots -- may become the sites of new mixed-use settlements.
Let's hope so!
A traditional virtue of cities, which is to maximize access while minimizing energy and transport costs, may once again shape urban form much more strongly than in the past 50 years or so.
Let's hope so!!!
Flying over southern Jersey, I'm struck by the Cookie-cutter Housing Webs that cover old farm-fields.. There will be some bizarre Ghost Towns, and if the population shrinks (as it must), then the material wealth in these hollowing places will become a new 'Raw Material' for salvaging into later waves of new-home construction. Miles of Copperwire, Steel Studs, Aluminum Doorframes, Glass, PVC
I have to wonder if the scraps from this great overproduction we've been part of might not allow a smaller population to have a somewhat abundant supply of many necessary resources for the materials we commonly work with. Will we have to mine for more HardDrives, or are the trillions of used and dead ones going to be reworked into the next ones?
Will there be a new industry in Mining Landfills for all the precious material we looked on as junk over the last 60-80 years?
Odd. I would have called it a boring topic that is constantly being discussed - even in posts about Hubbard linearization.
Just as one example, the stock answer says you have live close enough to shopping to walk or bike. But outside Denver, where the sun shines and the wind blows, most suburban houses have enough energy available to them if they could capture and store it to run a small, efficient electric vehicle the several miles needed for shopping every couple of days. What technologies make that possible? How soon will they be available? Or you could consider it in reverse. There's lots of energy available on the roof of the Safeway, is it enough to run electric delivery vans to take groceries to the customers who order online?
Another stock answer is that suburban housing requires too much energy for heating and cooling. Ground-source heat pumps are very efficient, are feasible retrofits in the Denver suburbs, and use electricity from any source in place of today's common natural gas heating fuel. Combine that with much better insulation. Is it good enough?
Suppose electrification is possible. Colorado is rich in potential wind and solar resources, has enough coal to meet that augmented electricity demand for decades, and significant uranium and thorium that could run CANDU reactors (thorium needs a bit of seeding); does suburbia survive in Colorado but not in New Jersey? Not to pick on New Jersey in particular, but they seem to have a lot of people and darned few energy resources. Still, is balkanization of the US along energy-rich and energy-poor lines possible?
However for more significant programs, be they oil shale, tar sand, nuclear power, CTL or whatever, there is a very significant lead time required to acquire the funds, get the permits etc etc. Without the awareness and incentive to initiate and accelerate those programs, there is quite likely to be a period where supply available will fall and there will be considerable pain in the world economy.
Personally, I think of "peak oil" as conventional oil + condensates. That's it. As the world moves toward substitutes, as it is doing, we are open to all sorts of monkey business regarding "peak liquids". Now, nothing compares with the EROEI of conventional oil. This fueled the creation of industrial civilization. However, in order to define conventional oil, you need to be quite specific, for example, about the API. Is Saudi heavy crude that can't be as easily refined "conventional oil"? Depends on what your agreed upon definition is.
The EROEI of all liquid substitutes, including "extra heavy oil" like that from Orinoco, is worse both in the production & refining. Same with the tar sands and ethanol. It was the cheapness of conventional oil that made all this "progress" possible. Everything else (eg. GTL, other examples already mentioned) is more expensive. So the substitutes all have a lower payback.
Probably, TOD should track both. But even with all this miracle technology (ethanol, GTL, tar sands, etc.), what is truly impressive is that we seem to have peaked anyway even with these substitutes added in. OGJ raised Canada's proved reserves to 180 Gb.
Source here. Like I said, all sorts of monkey business is possible with liquids accounting practices. But monthly production figures don't lie even when you throw in ethanol & the kitchen sink.Nice article, lastsasquatch.
As I understand it, wind generated electricity has an E-ROI of 80:1. That's certainly in the ballpark with oil.
Thin-film solar is probably in the neighborhood of 20:1, and is likely to improve.
I'm not saying that there will be a painless transition to renewables. Wind and solar will be a big, big project to implement. The US, and others, could certainly have a hard time borrowing enough money to get through the transition, among other problems.
But, there's no theoretical, technical basis for pessimism. No limits dictated by the laws of physics. Just the social difficulty of re-engineering our society.
Probably not. The logistic peaks for alternatives are going to look a lot worse than a Hubbert curve. Alternatives, be it CTL, ethanol, etc, take more investment, take longer construction times, and the equipment does not last any where near as long as a simple hole in the ground does. You're going to have logistic curves for anything; and they will be on a lot shorter time scale than decades. At some point all your effort is going to be in keeping your existing capacity running; there will be nothing extra available for additional. Market magic or not.
Michael Lynch is a thoroughly self-critical guy. I think that beard is a testament to his ability to be introspective while an effective trumpeter of truth.
Ethanol, particularly if built as part of an existing sugar refinery, takes less investment and has a much, much shorter construction time than the equipment required to produce gasoline. In the time it would take to just get a permit for an oil refinery, you could probably build an ethanol plant.
In some states the refinery will actually be easier to permit too; mainly because of the water discharge for the ethanol plant. Nimby for either will be the determining factor.
I'm dubious of corn-based ethanol and can't argue with you in that regard. Building a facility to create ethanol from sugar, particularly at an existing sugar mill, would certainly be a much simpler and quicker process then any oil refinery that someone would actually build. The ones being built near me take one year. I understand that in the case of sugar, there is no water discharge as it is all recycled.
I haven't seen comparisions of operating costs, but would be surprised to find out that ethanol costs more per gallon than any modern facility refining crude.
I will be able to provide numbers on this in a month or so.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/topworldtables1_2.html
If you believe in magic, Halfin, you will be sorely dissapointed in how this plays out. To take your argument to the extremes, do you think alternatives can magically take over from fossil fuels (eventually) and continue to increase indefinitely? Now that would be magic.
Tony
To really reduce condumption, say 2%/year, would require far higher prices. Referring again to the 70's, prices rose 9x in 9 years. We wont languish much longer in double digits. Think about it like this: at $10/gallon, overall cost of driving/mile will remain under 1/2 of total driving costs (based on $300/month lease rate, $100/month insurance, and driving 12k miles/year). Many will insist on their suv's and single passenger commuting at that cheap price.
I think that's what worries me most...
A while ago, I decided that the lowest "correct" price of fossil fuels should be the theoretical cost of the cheapest renewable alternative. Theoretical would take account of its cost after we'd devoted the requisite, substantial quantum of fossil fuel to perfecting the process of gathering it.
This also made me realise that Peak Oil can also be considered to be an over-population problem. Diminishing EROEI allows for fewer fat bastards living off the fat of the land.