323 comments on DrumBeat: August 1, 2006
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323 comments on DrumBeat: August 1, 2006
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http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,107939,00.htm
Withdraw or Stand Firm?
Michael DiMercurio | August 01, 2006
"So how do we get of Iraq with our dignity and not have a costly energy crisis?"
(tongue firmly in cheek...)
EXACTLY RIGHT. In a population in overshoot, many individual organisms must die. And humans on Earth are most certainly in overshoot. How do we decide who dies? Obviously, there's no easy answer if you want to be "humane." But there is one easy answer: NOT ME!
(and I'm dead serious, no tongue in cheek here. they can and will die, I'll hang on as long as I can.)
"The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive; others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear; others are being slowly devoured from within by rasping parasites; thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst and disease. It must be so. If there is ever a time of plenty this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored."
~ Richard Dawkins: River Out of Eden, page131-132.
==AC
Being aware of peak oil has really made me face up to my own mortality, indeed to the mortality of everything around us. It makes it hard for me to keep ignoring the deeper questions about existence and its meaning.
"This too, shall pass".
Yet another meaningless emotional response!
"partners in crime" : this is the evolutionary selected cheater detection mechanism at work.
Assuming an entirely egalitarian worldwide society (same income for EVERYONE) the problems of Peak Oil would be JUST AS BAD!
Cut the bullshit!
It is the GROWTH and total population which matters.
Don't apologize to me, apologize to your children. The war against nature is in reality a war of humans against humans: today's generation against all future generations. Our generation is winning big, but only by destroying humanity's life-support systems--clean water, clean air, and food production.
In the big scheme, the Iraq war is insignificant. The question is: "WHERE ARE THE REAL BATTLES?" The actual frontlines are right here in America, all around you: suburban sprawl, petrochemical factories, nuclear + coal power plants, industrial agriculture, and most importantly, the logging/drilling/mining of the few remaining intact ecosystems. Our victory is nearly complete. Soon it will be total, and all future humans can "thrive" in this toxic wasteland we have created for their enjoyment.
Soon our victory will be complete. We will have killed off every other species on earth except the rats and vermin that co-exist with us humans. Soon we will have a brown cursted earth all to ourselves. Then we can celebrate.
I guess....
yep, not much to celebrate, is there?
I was brushing up on my evolution last night. It's fascinating how the in the last stages of human evolution, the successor species exterminated its still-living ancestor species.
Also, I love how we are the most successful predator of all time. WE CAN EAT ROCKS!!! Literally! And like all extremely successful species, we will be destroyed by our own success. It is the natural order of things: an organism always modifies its environment just by existing, and its excretions are autotoxic. We can dominate, but not control.
Industrial civilization is as doomed as yeast in a wine cask.
The burning question on my mind is this:
Do humans have the power to destroy ALL life on earth?
Will nuclear armageddon do it? Persistent bio-accumulating organic toxins? Radical climate changes? I am still undecided, but I'm studying up on molecular biology. I'm sure we'll manage to cause another mass extinction--but I don't think we can actually destroy all life. Prokaryotes are some damn hardy organisms.
Yes, but probably with great difficulty as well as great(seemingly innate) stupidity.
Life is pretty resilient and could always re-evolve, though wasting a few million or hundreds of millions of years may be sad. I did a first pass of collapse levels a few years back:
http://theslide.blogspot.com/2006/01/levels-of-collapse-warning-may-be.html
Being humans we are more interested in our own and our economic systems survival, I have bad news: lots die and the economic systems break.
Naahhh...the cockroaches will always survive. Heck, you can microwave those critters and they just laugh at you.
Not a chance. There are creatures that require temperatures close to the boiling point of water in order to survive. They prefer temperatures above boiling. Some of the latest thinking is that they are very closely related to the first life forms on earth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthermophiles
Note also that they do not even depend on current energy from the sun as almost all lifeforms do. As long as those deepsea vents remain hot, they have what they need.
But the real lords of the planets are the microbes. If they could think through some form of emergent behaviour or something, they would probably regard us as mere brownian motion in the tea cup of evolution.
Apropos microbes: here's a link to an appropriately doomerish la times article called "The Rise of Slime".
I am assuming you have read my previous postings on Mexico. Mexico City [pop. approx. 20 million] is an area in extreme Overshoot, and the ongoing election standoff and Cantarell depletion is only adding to the population stress. Now add in the absolutely mind-boggling water shortages and energy requirements to keep this area minimally supplied--Mexico City is optimally primed for a titanic clash as they go postPeak. This link is two years old, but my guess is that things have only gotten worse since it was first published.
Excerpts:
-------------
Water Crisis as Mexico City Sinks Faster than Venice
Mexico City's underlying aquifer is now collapsing at a staggering rate beneath the streets. While Venice slips into the Adriatic at a fraction of an inch each year, Mexico City is lurching downwards by as much as a foot a year in some areas. Over the past century, it has dropped 30ft.
The city now has five pumping stations working around the clock to draw water vertically three-quarters of a mile from the neighbouring Cutzamala River basin and from the lower catchment area of the River Lerma. Paying about $50,000 (£28,000) a day in water rights alone, the system consumes the same amount of electricity as Puebla, a city of 1.3 million people to the south-east.
Below street level, the ongoing subsidence is wreaking havoc with the water distribution and drainage systems. The city's 8,300-mile network of water pipes routinely fracture, losing up to 40 per cent of potable water supplies, according to some estimates. The city's sewage used to drain away by gravity towards a far-off outflow in the Gulf of Mexico but now needs to be first pumped uphill before it can be drained.
----------------------
The Mayan and Aztecan collapses of yore will be nothing compared to when Mexico City has to be evacuated.
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
We may be the SA of coal, but how the heck does one "ramp-up" quickly with it? Especially if you tie GHG preventatives to it. It seems to me that we are tied to the Middle East for quite some years.
Funny he did not mention kicking over the Syrian regime. That might prove a benefit - just the knocking over of it, not occupying it. Eliminating an ally of Iran might be of benefit.
Legitimate point. But Syria continues to be a way-station and suppler of arms flowing into Lebanon (and Iraq).
Instead of occupying, maybe disposing of the Assad regime and letting the Syrians sort things out would buy the West and Israel time, and it would be a blow against Iran. Remember, there are very very few Shias in Syria, it is run by Alawites and is largely Sunni.
All good points you make. But remember Syria is not currently a religious regime, but a Fascist state left-over, sort of like Franco's Spain into the 1960's.
But the Alawites dominate it and it would be comparable in part to having half the Cabinet in the USA run by members of the 7th Day Adventists. Some Sunni consider Alawites as beyond the pale.
This is not a fucking game of Risk, you are talking about regular people, families, civilians.
The civil war in Iraq didn't satisfy your bloodlust? Just give it time.
What's wrong with you?
RIGHT ON!!!
Racism is judging a person or group of people solely on the basis of race. Hating all the Arabs, or Muslims, or any ethnic or religious group, is fucking RACISM!!! And this is exactly the way the gov't=media=corporations wants you to think. This is the propaganda 24/7 in our media.
Oh, and by the way, Red Cross observers on the ground in Qana say there were no rockets or Hezbollah in Qana.
Thank you in advance.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html
I have to admit that I do not put much faith on Israeli military propaganda "targeting video footage" that show a truck driving on some road as evidence of "rocket launchers" entering Qana. With all due respect, my friend, I am surprised you do.
If you want to make a difference in a positive way, why don't you go to www.fromisraeltolebanon.com and sign the petition to stop this blood bath? Thanks!
O.K., I will accept your solid argument that there was a major screw-up. In WWII it was called a FUBAR.
People died. It is wrong and sad.
If Hezbollah will work under the Lebanon Govt., AND as a part of it, and will not fire missiles into Israel UNLESS the entire Govt. agrees to it, well, I think you have an agreement (maybe with also taking/stopping resupply of THOUSANDS of missiles from Iran/Syria.)
On the radio last week I said if a third party fired missiles from Baja California into National City and Chula Vista, what do you think we would do? See President Wilson in 1916.
Contrary to what is presented in "Saving Private Ryan" the FUBAR acronym came later (our of Vietnam, if memory serves, but I could be off by a war or two).
For current usage, most popular is BOHICA: Bend Over, Here It Comes Again.
For those doing multiple tours in Iraq, the last formulation is especially appropriate.
Tell that to the people that are shaping today's "New World Order"....didn't Bush Sr. coin that phrase?
Ultimately, the only race you can't be racist against are the Chosenites. There have been coy murmurs here and there in the liberal press that you know, it's OK to not like black people, as long as you're not mean about it, and of course the noise about "illegal immigration" which we all know is about those brown people from down south, not illegals from England and Europe, and needless to say working-class white people have been a legitamate target for hate for years now, but don't ever ever ever say anything non-adoring about the Jews.
Now, there are Jews, and Jewish groups, who are against Zionism, but as much as possible is done in the US to deny they even exist. This is why Chomsky is so marginalized here. There's actually a much more lively discussion about the direction Israel should go within Israel than here in the US.
The US is basically owned and operated by the AIPAC/PNAC faction of Zionists, being about equal parts Jews and Christians who seem to believe, respectively, in the superiority of the Jewish race and in the necessity to do whatever the Jews want so Jesus Christ will come back*
*which if he actually did, boy would he be pissed!
fleam : don't ever ever ever say anything non-adoring about the Jews.
Jews are "more equal than others" with respect to antiracism.
I am surprised that you don't see the danger in this unsustainable position, it makes things worse.
There will ALWAYS be some racism around against EVERY and ANY group, it has to be contained to reasonable levels just like our other maladaptive traits.
There is no "final solution" to racism.
I have Jewish friends, want Israel to be, yet mostly despise the Zionist state Israel is now.
Sadly I think Israel has crossed too many lines now and have probably united too may arab folks agaisnt them. My guess is that Israel must relocate to USA asap.
Why? Because no one has had their family massecred by Koreans, Irish, Japanese (at least not for a long time) etc. There is NO pattern of the Japanese, Irish, etc declaring themselves above the law, and massecring people around them. No one lives in Neighborhood X, where Neighborhood X has been in existance for 1000's of years, and have a bunch of this or that group move in next door, then start shooting them for sport like squirrels, cut off their water, chop down ancestral olive and almond trees, and level houses.
If speaking the truth makes me a Nazi, maybe we need to look at who thinks speaking the truth is so dangerous, or .... hey maybe those Nazis were onto something. Seig, heil!
I also think the whole "anti-semitism" thing is really blown out of proportion. You can't tell me that there is a hostile anti-semitic attitude in the U.S. as a whole. A jewish family could move in next door to me and neither I, nor anyone else on the block would think anything of it.
Just because a very tiny minority of people are anti-semitic, doesn't mean there's a huge undercurrent of hatred toward jews. There are still people who are racist toward blacks. The whole bruhaha about immigration has some undertones of racism toward Latin Americans.
There will always be a small number of people who are bigots and who dislike certain nationalities/races/religions. I say it is BS that there is serious anti-semitism to the point that jews can't live in a country like the United States or most European countries, where anti-semitism is purportedly worse. The argument makes about as much sense as saying that African Americans all need to move back to Africa because a few kooks still exist out there who are racist toward black people.
Native Americans, however, did resist violently (after trying peaceful means--treaties that were largely ignored by the US gov't) but were crushed by the superior numbers and firepower of their oppressors, who had no compunction in using terrorist actions themselves (ethnic cleansing on a huge scale). Once a resistance group has been neutralized either through overwhelming defeat or assimilation, the dominant culture can safely ignore them.
The only reason we haven't had terrorism by oppressed groups in this country since the Indian Wars is because the conditions that create it haven't been in place here. We've mostly exported our oppression and our representatives have been attacked in those countries (embassies, troops, businesses, etc. that have been attacked in Africa, the Middle East, Central & South America). 9/11 was the same sort of attack, they just brought it home for a change.
I expect to see more home-grown terrorism if the economy tanks (as is likely), the gov't grows more oppressive (as is likely), and some ethnic/religious/economic group or groups get blamed for the problems with resulting unfair discrimination (very likely). If they feel they have no other options, they'll resort to violence.
Now, yeah, it's probably a case where the only solution is to give the Isrealis Navada or something. But, the first neighborning village they pillage and massecre, you can expect Americans to strap on the bomb belts.......
The interesting thing is that the Israeli lobby as you mentioned is so entrenched here, that the US would clearly do whatever it takes to ensure Israeli has a steady stupply.
- We divorce Israel, and we get the oil, but Israel goes into a nuclear rampage. We lose.
- We stay with Israel, and they shut the valve. War ensues and we are crippled without the oil. Then, Israel in desperation since we can't help, they go into a nuclear rampage anyways. We lose.
Either way, the oilfields end up producing Green Glowing Light Sweet Crude that is useless. And we lose.Thus, the only strategy is to keep the Arabs divided as long as possible. When they unite, it's Game Over.
"Oh, and by the way, Red Cross observers on the ground in Qana say there were no rockets or Hezbollah in Qana."
And you believe, though actually the better word is accept, this as accurate?
Yes, Jack Greene, some people believe the Red Cross before they believe the IDF or Fox News or Iranian exiles being paid by PNAC.
And your blood lust is showing.
We would all do well to review the lessons in "Wag the Dog".
Exactly my point. One must examine sources from all possible places. I would suggest that electronic media is spinning from many different directions.
I thought Wag the Dog was way too much Washington Beltway - not everything stops at the front of the TV screen, and in this modern age of the blogs, it is hard to hide anything, as if one could hide much 10-20 years ago.
Whoa, just the opposite. Tons and Tonnes get spun at blogs.
Rather them than us.
Also, it will give the Syrians the opportunity to get rid of a corrupt dictatorship that has 20% unemployment weighted down by a creaking old military machine that has been sending in men and supplies to kill our people in Iraq and in Israel, and the last time I looked, Israel was and is our ally.
By the way, Risk is far too simplistic.
No, they will not throw chocolates, they would want to throw bombs, but in their backward state (and frankly people who think the 9th Century is the place to be, well, I will take a pass) they might shoot longbow arrows.
Ask yourself, do you really think Iran does not want to have the Atom Bomb? If the answer is yes, than what do you do about it? If no, than you and I do not agree.
Long-bow is a reference to Shakespeare's HENRY V, not literal.
Israel is, and they have a reason to be afraid. Six million in 1941-45.
The USSR and kin did not embrace an end of the world philosophy and a "Death is Good" and it is now the "End of the World" religion.
I'm a US citizen. My interests are with the United States. Jerusalem is not worth the bones of a single US Marine, and it is certanily not worth the billions we've given Israel in foreign aid.
Fuck 'em.
<Yawn> Nice right-wing talking point there. </yawn>
French Revolution
Bolshevik Revolution
Pol Pot genocide of Cambodian people
Systematic starvation of millions of Ukranians under Stalin
Hm, now what was it about those nice reasonable atheists???
Now agnostics, maybe there is a glimmer of hope there. It is hard to generate the emotional fervor to kill masses of people under the slogan, "I am an ignoramus. Maybe you should be one too?"
As was pointed out, the crimes you list were committed by so-called Communists who were ostensibly operating with utopian (from their perspective) goals in mind--concepts not much different than those of the religious zealots. Their professed atheism is insignificant to their political beliefs. So, IMO, these groups (Communists and religious believers) can be lumped together and my point still stands, though I should perhaps change some terms. Change "religion" to "zealots" and "atheism" to....hmmmm, what's a good label for "live and let live" beliefs? Tolerantism?
I would rather bet on IEDs, have we not seen that somewhere else already?
And don't forget suicide bombers.
How do you get rid of that?
The myth of the centaur was based on mounted Ukranians ("Sythians) shooting short and powerful bows to overwhelm ancient Greeks. Both Mongols and Turks were marvelously profiecient mounted bowmen.
To get an idea of how hard it is accurately to shoot an arrow from horseback, just try it.
Yet another lapse in your "education" Don, the longbow was used way before the englishmen reinvented it.
It is mentionned in Xenophon's Anabasis as used by the Karduchians or Kurds (!) :
They were, moreover, excellent archers, using bows nearly three cubits long and arrows more than two cubits. When discharging the arrow, they draw the string by getting a purchase with the left foot planted 28 forward on the lower end of the bow. The arrows pierced through shield and cuirass,
You know how hard it is to shoot a longbow from a horse?
The English longbow was unique for a number of reasons, including availability of yew for the staff and the ability of some monarchs to persuade (or bribe) large numbers of "yeoman" to develop the incredible muscles needed to draw a 130 lb. self-bow.
The kurdish bows were compound recurve bows--entirely different from a self longbow such as the English used.
You are talking to an archer here.
Archers however, seldom get much respect. Look at Pandaros, who killed Achilleus, and from whom we get the inglorious word "pander," meaning to pimp. Come to think of it, the two Pandars were probably different people, but you get the point.
Re-curved compound bows, not long bows. (There aint a lot of Continental Yew on the Steppes)
Oh and BTW: The Welsh were probably the first to perfect the art of the medieval ''English Longbow''.
The longbow probably goes back about 50 000 years, so calling it ''English''is a bit of a misnomer.
Still , we happy few, we band of brothers do owe some kind of proto-nationalistic debt to Henri Tydder.
The way things are going, the longbow may yet come back in fashion...
- Large
- Beefy, extremely well-muscled, probably built somewhat like a lobsided wrestler with a twenty inch diameter neck.
- Based on the historical evidence I've seen, the longbow flourished for only a few hundred years--largely because of the difficulty and expense of feeding and organizing large numbers of large men and training them and providing arrows. You had to practice probably three times a week at least to maintain a minimum level of proficiency. Your average peasant (regardless of ethnicity) was just not up to it. A beefy tall (i.e. taller than the five foot three average of the middle ages) well fed (lots of mutton, pork, cheese and beef--very very expensive to feed) guys organized into platoons and companies, together with officers--all very expensive, very difficult.
Much cheaper was to hire Genoese crossbowmen. Not as effective--but much much cheaper.Then there will be a 'border incident'...
I think the IDF are playing for keeps this time: 600 000 Lebanse refugees; destruction of infrastructure required for a viable life; massive rebuilding costs beyond the finances of the Lebanon; pollution and damage to a healthy, emerging tourist industry in Lebanon; and The IDF dont appear to care about world opinion. You wouldnt do all this unless you were determined to win.
Israel must also know that if Hezbullah is eliminated, another will rise in its place later, possibly manned by the young men in the above mentioned 600 000 refugees.
And of course, its convenient that, at this time, the US have a lot of boys on the ground in the next country along from Syria. Eastern Syria is 'good tank country'.
But just a polite reminder: Baathist Syria is a friend of a Nuclear tipped oil power called Russia.
Just a thought, but who knows where this may go?
Please explain to me why only a small portion of the Israeli Army is mobilized, if this is their plan?
The Syrian army is pretty bad, so maybe Israel only needs a small percentage of its force. . . .
My point is that this is different.
Someone somewhere has worked out that Israel has to win every war; Islamic States only have to win the last war.
Ultimately it is a matter of demography.
We will see. But Israel is faced with a problem. As time goes by, her ability to win wars against her neighbors will become increasingly difficult, simply due to numbers.
It is likely that Israel feels that she no longer has a choice. As time goes by, the population numbers just do not add up,and of course, the soldiers of Hezbullah learn, just as we, slowly learnt how to deal with Blitzkreig, they too are getting better at taking on the IDF.
Hezbullah could be destroyed, but some other organization would spring up and take up arms in it's place. You cannot displace 600 000 people and expect to be loved for it. When you do this, then you must realise that you must forever police a dead zone. No amount of UN Troops in a buffer zone will 'cure' this problem. It is old strategies being applied in a new world. The population bomb makes all the difference. The Six Day war and the Yom Kippur War were fought under a different demographics. The world has changed. There are many more Palestinian, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian, Egyptian, Saudi, Iraqi and Iranian boys who are 'up for it'. Shit, they cant even get laid. What exactly do you do with fit young men who have no future?
This is the sorrow of the Middle East: perpetual war of annhilation.
Add to this: Peak Water, Oil and Grain.
Next thing you know, they strap on the wearable bomb, and KABOOM!
Your Quote: "Just a thought, but who knows where this may go?
Perhaps the Israelis and Lebanese are battling for future Earthmarine control of a viable and large biosolar habitat. Extrapolate and consider the larger context from the information included in this earlier posting of mine.
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Each region may decide how best to proceed in it's own nation's interests.
We may be watching PO /P Water / P Food in action as we speak. No longer in the realm of academosphere or blogosphere, but 'coming to a civilisation near you'.
''Well, in their time, they made a really good peanut butter sandwich''. (Said the Cockroach) - Actually Bageant from Cold Type - but I am sure he wont mind.
A side benefit would be the elimination of all the terrorists at the same time. And it would send a clear message to the other oil producing countries that they had bettern not mess with deliveries of "our oil" to the USA, China, India and Europe.
And I will almost guarentee that there are people in the Government(s) that are thinking about it.
It would beat fighting a nuclear war with China or India over the oil!
And the leaders of China aren't going to let the residents of the ME stand in their way of China's growth.
War crimes are only commited by those who lose the war, not by those who win them - According to history.
Mind you I am not advocating this or saying this is what should happen, I am only putting forth what could/might happen when we hit major problems with demand outstripping supply. And ignoring the possibility is a good way to "let it happen". You have to think and talk about the worst possible scenarios if you hope to be able to have any real chance to avert them from happening. Ignoring these possibilities by those aware of Peak Oil is just like Joe Sixpack ignoring peak oil 'cause he doesn't want it to happen.
I think that means that the American people will think everything is OK ... right up until the costs start to stare them in the face. This has already happened in Iraq. The polls are running for pull-out, and not "double up."
We can thank our stars that we were not quite so evil that we accepted this price tag and went shopping for more.
Hagel: Bush Should Seek Immediate Cease Fire In Lebanon; Says Iraq Is Vietnam All Over Again
There's breaking ranks, and then there's breaking ranks.
Hagel is seriously thinking of running for President. He is also a bit like McCain in the GOP.
http://vitw.org/archives/714
Incidentally, the Vice President of the United States is Richard B. Cheney, not Chaney.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresident/
Som confusion is understandable.
The usual number thrown out after 9/11 was a potential pool of 1% of the Muslim population. In my opinion I think it was way too high of a figure, but in areas, like Pakistan or Somalia, it would be higher, while lower in India.
The fact that it is not anywhere near 1% points out to me that most people (Muslim, Arabs, French, etc.) do not want a return to the 7th century.
Right! So why are YOU longing for that by any other means?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060726&articleId=2824
Yes, it is on EB too.
It is a well known project:
THE BAKU-TBLISI-CEYHAN OIL PIPELINE, Globalisation and Inequality, Daniël Meijers
Bush voices support for oil and gas pipelines leading from Caspian to Turkey
How is this a conspiracy?
pssst your racism is showing.
Haven't we had enough empirical evidence that social engineering with cruise missiles is about the dumbest god damn idea to be hatched in the last hundred years?
The idea of purposely destabilizing the whole region has no logic behind it whatsoever. The likelihood of a democracy springing up out of the ensuing anarchy is incredibly remote. Another dictatorship is exceedingly more likely. During periods of anarchy, people seek stability first, and only relative trivialities like political freedom last. So just going through toppling governments would not offer any tangible benefits, and very likely would result in even worse, and more hostile fundamentalist governments.
Our problem with Iran is we're treating them as an enemy, which they may be, but rather than treat them as one we need to "defeat", we need to treat them as an adversary we need to learn to work with. Our foolish overreliance and overconfidence in our military might has accomplished jack shit so far. Maybe if we'd tried being a bit more friendly to Iran all along, things would be different now. In any case, we'll have to start some time, because you don't make friends by just going around throwing bombs. This is also one of the mistakes with Israel's posture as well.
It appears that we have the current and retired senior officers in the Pentagon to thank for forcing the BCR (Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld) to take the nuclear option off the table regarding Iran. I think that we are seeing the beginning of what may be an ultimatum to BCR by the officers in the Pentagon regarding BCR's misadventures in the Middle East.
The body counts in Iraq may seem somewhat abstract to most us, but the officers in the Pentagon are seeing their fellow officers and their enlisted personnel following their orders being slaughtered for no discernible reason.
This story reminds me a lot of the Vietname debate. I have forgotten who said "Just declare victory and get out," but it's a great line for today's situation.
On the original article(page 2) there is a discussion,
I found the comments interesting. Most were saying we should stay the course.
"If we don't fight them there, we will have to fight them here." was the general mood.
I want to thank all of you for putting out all this good info and thought provoking subjects.
JC
I was shocked to hear a friend of mine say that all those Lebanese-Americans we rescued and put on cruise ships back here, are Hezb'allah agents, and once they're back here, will start doing terrorist acts here. He actually believes this.
The current view of the world presented to Americans is entirely self centered, with our comfort and safety being all that matters, and the hell with the comfort and safety of others. The way things are presented, people elsewhere in the world are just there for our own amusement or convenience, and other than that they just don't matter.
I don't find it especially surprising that most Americans' attitudes pretty much reflect the crap that is presented on the "news".
This would be around the time of the Seymour Hersh articles on Iran & the nuclear option.
Actually, I'd guess that the deal was no bombing in Iran of any kind ... but your tea leaves may vary ;-)
Thus the War Party's attempt to go around them via Lebanon and Syria - trying to create an "inevitable" escalation.
Source.
The city of Saigon fell on April 30, 1975, more than six and a half months before Rumsfeld was sworn into office.
As I stated, your facts are in error, thus your conclusions are to be questioned.
The Domino Theory was widely argued by both parties during the 60s. It is a lot like the if we don't fight them there we'll have to fight them here propaganda. I'm still waiting for the Viet Cong to storm the beaches of San Diego.
@Westexas
The Iraq war combined with the Afghanistan war appear to have hit the special forces disproportionally hard. (Sorry, lost the link to the article). Since current strategic thinking is that future wars will be increasingly volatile and will be increasingly anarchistic, i.e. more guerilla warfare with less and less clear distinction between populace and army the special force become more and more important for warfare. Therefore the number of casualties is not as important for military as the number of special forces that are lost.
I was thinking about this after watching another infuriating c-span segment, this one with Sen. Landreau (sp?). I like her and I'm not opposed to expanding drilling in the gulf, but there is always the unspoken (or spoken) assumption amongst some callers that we can drill our way to energy independence, especially where oil is concerned. I know that's bunk, but I'm trying to get a handle on what we could realistically produce if we drilled absolutely everywhere.
No.
We can slow the rate of decline of total oil and natural gas production in North America by exploiting conventional and unconventional sources of oil and gas natural gas, but these sources should be used as a bridge to an economy that is powered as much as possible by electricity from renewable sources.
IMO, this is the Great Debate.
Do we believe ExxonMobil, Yergin, Saudi Arabia and most of the auto/housing/finance group and continue to try to expand our economy--and increase our consumption--against a finite resource base, or do we tax the hell out of energy consumption, offset by abolishing the Payroll Tax, and use our fossil fuel resources as bridge to a more sustainable future?
http://www.houstonpeakoil.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=2
Alanfrombigeasy and I will be speaking. I know of at least one person who wants to carpool from Dallas, if anyone is interested: westexas@aol.com
With two hot babes in my lap, two more in the passenger seat, four in the back seat... that comes to...
Oh never mind, I just can't compete with AMPD in the fantasizing department.
Or me and a really full load of junk lol!
The old order is fighting tooth and claw to maintain the status quo. It makes you wonder what needs to happen to begin the process of change in this country when not even something like Katrina or the Iraq debacle makes much of an impact.
Welcome to the New America. The limits to growth are here--and you lose.
Exactly in line with the "American Way Of Life Is Non-Negotiable" model, consume more! They're doing this to use via propaganda rather than at gunpoint because doing it by propaganda is much, much cheaper and spares good fighting men for the war front instead of having to have them at home watching over us. But, the gunpoint method is always there, waiting in the wings....
The US and allies need to fix the situation. Otherwise it will look like nothin more than plundering a countries resources for its own gain, with total disregard for the people and culture of that country.
Of course it would have been better not to have invaded in the first place, and used the money to research alternative fuels, or more a more fuel efficient motor.