If we were to reach that point where the American people were capable of impeaching a (p)resident that deserves far worse, then we could be at the point where they might unite to do something about peak oil.

Until the people recognize that Bush represents, in so many ways, the feckless attitude of the consumer mobs, the right wing noise machine, the Dems and Repubs, the corporate pirates, and the looney religious right, then we are lost. To impeach resident Bush is to impeach the American people. They have egregiously wallowed in their Falstaffian cheap energy revelry and ignored the consequences: environmental devastation, impoverishment of the people, destruction of the United States' creditworthiness, increased racism, sexism, ageism, and a marked decrease in the health of the people.

The people have to accept that they made a mistake. The blind desire to be right is killing this country, and it is killing the planet. Ego must be set aside. This is not the time to be worried about seeming the fool.

The basic premises are:

Reduced population is good.
A healthy environment is good.
Health care is good.
Eating healthy food is good.
A sustainable world is good.

ANY STEP TOWARDS FULFILLMENT OF THESE BASIC PREMISES IS GOOD.

So, what are the basic things you see that we need?

V

This passage tends to be a bit much -

'The people have to accept that they made a mistake. The blind desire to be right is killing this country, and it is killing the planet. Ego must be set aside. This is not the time to be worried about seeming the fool.

The basic premises are:

Reduced population is good.
A healthy environment is good.
Health care is good.
Eating healthy food is good.
A sustainable world is good.

ANY STEP TOWARDS FULFILLMENT OF THESE BASIC PREMISES IS GOOD.'

Such writing tends to make me nervous, shall we say, living as I do in a country that actually hit at least 3 out of 5 of your suggestions in living memory, at least - but then, Nazi Germany is not really the model you are advocating, I am certain. Though you may want to pause and think about the fact that Nazi Germany ranks higher on your scale than today's America.

We can certainly agree that population pressures are a major cause of problems, both socially and environmentally. Where I have my problem is what seems to be an almost constant drumbeat to take care of the problem of population pressure  by reducing the population now.

And this is made worse when combined with the idea behind a 'blind desire to be right' - ever thought that what seems to be your desire, blind or not, essentially equals mass murder?

Again, there is much to debate about peak oil, sustainability, and how certain societies seem to have developed a cancer's approach to the larger world in which they exist, but please, face the reality of your desire to 'reduce' (cull? - to put a word in your mouth) population.

New paradigms are fine, pointing out the flaws on solely relying on technology are fine, even pointing out much of the undoubtedly unavoidable human suffering (climate change being accelerated by coal burning as the oil runs out, for example) is quite acceptable.

Constantly pointing out how the 'die-off' of the 'overshoot' is the only salvation is a very old paradigm, looked at from here. Actually, it is a pretty old paradigm in America, too, except for the mass murder part. Have you ever actually questioned the intellectual company you seem to keep, or are  you just proving you are unconcerned about seeming a fool?

To add another aspect of this debate which also often seems to escape Americans - we will all die, long run or not. For example,  how China managed its population over a generation did not involve mass murder (in most people's eyes, at least), but do these results count in your 'overshoot' projections?

Peak oil is not 'poof' and no oil tomorrow - it is also possible to plan on a scale of decades, or in terms of generations (like the German forests, managed over several centuries since being clear cut). Maybe this is an advantage living in a society and area which has reminders of thousands of years of history in daily life - this too is part of what makes American perspectives seem so provincial when expanded to the wider world.

And no, this is not a technological fix, blind faith in anything, or even looking for a new paradigm - living without oil is normal when looked at from a historical European perspective. Sometimes, I have the feeling that people in America can't grasp the astoundingly simple fact that most of the world's people live in societies which completely pre-date the industrial era.

But growing up as an American in the 70s, I certainly do believe that America is in for a real world of hurt in the next few years. Quite honestly, I don't care that much about the looming disasters concerning a small fraction of humanity in a fairly small part of the world - see how easy it is to be callous about other people? I truly don't care about what happens to you and every single person you know and see and live within 500 miles of (hell, I think Americans have earned just about every bad thing likely to happen to them)- but unlike you it seems, I don't think them all 'dying off' is a good or necessary thing. As a matter of fact, I think trying to have them live in a way that keeps them alive is a worthy goal, involving all sorts of old paradigms - like vaccinating children, to give a trivial example. And you know something intriguing - vaccinations don't require an oil based economy at all. Hmm - old paradigms before the age of oil just might be useful after the age of oil? Unless, of course, you think dying children is a way to make the future brighter. I don't.

And if the term "population reduction" would be rephrased as "voluntary population reduction"? That certainly would make things less rigid, would it.
Expat,

Your essay seems more than a bit much: it is an over-reading that indicates a desire to create a straw man that makes it emotionally easier for a reader to brush off an argument that is quite simple and logically consistent.

For instance,

Though you may want to pause and think about the fact that Nazi Germany ranks higher on your scale than today's America.

Hmmm. I see no reference to Nazi Germany in my piece. I am totally baffled by your reference. As I am not advocating reopening the ovens, nor book burning, nor am I advocating a fascist government, I am absolutely baffled.

You mention that you live in a country that actually hit at least 3 out of 5 of your suggestions in living memory. Then you go on to imply that these things are bad things by claiming, by inference, that Nazi Germany achieved these things. You, of course, do not list them. Again, I am baffled. Why are any of these things bad? Who can complain about a reduced population, a healthy people, healthy food, a healthy environment? Who can complain about sustainability? Are these bad goals? I am baffled. Your logic is either seriously flawed, or you are not much of an historian.

Your logic train seems to work like this: The United States wants to expand the superhighway system. Hitler developed the autobahn. Therefore, the United States is a Nazi regime. If this essay were handed in by one of my students in freshman English, after a rather hearty laugh, I would count off five points for a serious logical flaw.

You are unhappy with my constant drumbeat to reduce population now. I have analysed your essay and it seems that the operative word in my assertion that we must stop population growth now is, in fact, the word "now." You seem to think that I am advocating the killing of people willy nilly to reduce the population. Again, I search my writings and I see no such demand or suggestion. You are putting words in my mouth -- might distasteful words at that.

Here is the logical conundrum spelled out for you. Stopping anything presumes a starting point where you actually begin the stopping. So to use a crude example: Let's say you want to stop your car at a stop sign. You have five hundred feet in which to accomplish this task. You are traveling sixty miles per hour. I presume that we can all agree on the the physics of the matter. In effect, if you wait to start braking until you are abreast of the sign, you will go into the intersection and be hit by a truck. By the way, you are carrying in the car's back seat three babies and fourteen sacks of loose broken glass. Let's say you wait to brake just five feet before the stop sign. Hmmm. Probably going out into the intersection again. Let's say we start stopping at fifty feet. May make it, but the babies and broken glass are going to be a problem. So, the best time to start stopping would be sooner than later. In  the case of population control, now is inherently better than later. Can you see that? Is that so hard?

Now, you have turned my implication that many who argue invalid points continue to do so because of their "blind desire to be right" around and have pointed it back at me. Hmmm. Refer back to debunking administered earlier. Which of these things are wrong?

Reduced population is good.
A healthy environment is good.
Health care is good.
Eating healthy food is good.
A sustainable world is good.

I think these things are right. They are inherently right. They are inarguable. To argue against them is, well, not very bright.

Though I have in previous posts referred to nature's cull, I have never advocated the actual extermination of anyone. You did not just put the word "cull" into my mouth, you put an entire idea that I have never stated and do not intend to state in my mouth.

Again, when you state that die-off or overshoot is my solution to the situation, and that it is the only salvation is a hallucination on your part. I never state that I want these things. I only state that that may be the result if we continue on the more, more, more technology path. See, now follow me closely, I am against the continuation of technology at all costs because it will cause the overshoot and dieoff. You see that? Do I need to repeat? I am nowhere advocating murder on any level. I am only examining what I feel physics demands, that every action result in an opposite and equal reaction. Uh-oh, I think I went a little too deep for you. Sorry. Perhaps the intellectual company [I] seem to keep are misinforming me. Oh that you had such friends. I wouldn't have to be writing this in such a simple form. You could ask those intellectuals to explain it to you. The one sure way to seem the fool is to argue in a pathetic and ignorant fashion. That makes you...well, you know, the fool. You.

Again, with the China reference, you seem to be flaunting your foolishness. After I had advocated the reduction of population, you then bring up China and ask me how China managed its population over a generation [and] did not involve mass murder (in most people's eyes, at least), but do these results count in your 'overshoot' projections? I would ordinarily not cover this rather simple mistake in argument if my colleagues and I were passing around freshmen papers and your poor paper were amongst them. They would understand your logic flaw. You, having actually committed the flaw, do not. If you need more explanation -- it is so hard to gauge the depth of ignorance and stupidity from a single example of writing -- I will be happy to break this down into single syllable words at a later time.

Peak oil is not 'poof' and no oil tomorrow. Duh. I did not say that either. This is getting wearisome.

Most of the rest of your essay trails off into generalizations and piffle, except the part where you say that I believe them all 'dying off' is a good or necessary thing. That is a another example of poor writing skills, logic and reading ability. I have never said that. I have said that it may happen, will certainly happen if we do not back down off the technological limb, but I never, ever, said I would view that as a good thing. Your accusations are just kind of silly.

Your final straw man argument is, you think dying children is a way to make the future brighter. I don't. Tsk, tsk. Woe to us child-hating intellectuals. I hang my head in shame. Wait. Just wait a minute. Upon further review of my writings, I notice that I have never advocated child murder. Damn you straw man builder.

Nice to see a reply. I should point out first, today's Germany hits at least 3 1/2 of your points but I couldn't make such a stark contrast between your cheery view of the future with its unavoidable die-off of the overshoot. Here is an interesting link at http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20060322-020039-9503r if you would like to read about how the world's largest exporting economy manages to stay that way over decades - but then, developing, using, and exporting technology like windmills or solar systems is just part of the whole problem, seems to be your general view.

Maybe that is my main point - to talk about changing paradigms and the crystal reality of billions of people not existing as the only way to improve our world is simply disturbing.

Please, continue pointing to flaws in arguments and expressing your ideas, but think harder about the reality you see as the best for the rest of us.

And because the pedant lurks, the point about Nazi Germany was simple - Nazi Germany did believe in healthy food, population reduction (for everyone else, at least), and health care (for the fit, but still essentially universal). And I have noticed a strange tendency whenever pointing to history, Americans seem to think this means a comparison to themselves or their government, or their society. I was comparing your list's points, and it is still not refuted that using your list, Nazi Germany actually scores higher than America - at least in health care, and likely healthy food. Though thankfully, today's Germany scores higher still - the population is demographically shrinking, food is still healthy, universal health care, and as seen in the link above, at least a half point for real world sustainability.

Population reduction now is an interesting point - Europe is doing it, China with its 1 child policy involving forced abortion (that was the arguable 'murder' part) did it for at least a generation - but nowhere do I see anything concrete, except you pointing out that old paradigms will lead to mass death, and the new paradigms will also mean mass death. 6 billion don't fit in your 1-2 billion people boat - in case you're curious, this thought can be reduced into an election campaign slogan from German politics over the last couple of decades - 'the boat is full.' (Even more interesting, it comes from the Republikaner.)

But writing 'See, now follow me closely, I am against the continuation of technology at all costs because it will cause the overshoot and dieoff' leads me to a different conclusion, since the only thing currently preventing the death of billions in our unsustainable world is the continuation of technology. Or is their death now better than their death later? It just doesn't work both ways. This is not putting words in your mouth, it is drawing a logical conclusion from what you write. Of course, 'all costs' is a decent point - Europe and Japan, for example, haven't used technology at 'all costs' for a couple of generations at this point. The world is much larger than America, a point not addressed at all in your reply.

To avoid the essay form, a final quote - 'They are inherently right. They are inarguable.' Sadly, we can probably both agree, I am wasting my time trying to discuss any of your assumptions or conclusions.

I'm still baffled. Are these not good things?

Reduced population is good.
A healthy environment is good.
Health care is good.
Eating healthy food is good.
A sustainable world is good.

If any country achieves these things, then that's a good thing, right?

Right?

If you cite methods, then argue methods. I was not talking about methods.

I will not bother with a point by point rebuttal as it is clear that you cannot understand the argument well enough for my effort to be worthwhile. As they say, never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. And you are clearly annoyed. And I wish to waste no more time.

Why don't you give him more than 90 minutes to respond? Maybe it is because you are a Nazi.
You posted a list of things that are nice...puppies are nice and so is ice cream.

The healthcare being good....our western healthcare causes a higher older population. I work in the healthcare industry in an ER and on a rig.  So much is disposable and so many people are involved in care I can provide by myself. Example if someone gets a small cut on their hand and I clean it and want to put steristrips on it.
1 I tell the captain who calls his boss and a company rep.
2 Call a real MD on shore who concurs.
3 Treat the patient.

The ER on shore is the same way 10 people are involved in care that could be performed by one.

I have seen the argument that cigarettes are goid because people die younger and don't cost society a long retirement.  Taking the moral issue out I would like to see the economics of that.

The other thing is genetic diseases.  If we are to treat these and make patients comfortable in life they should be encouraged to adopt or not have kids.  Passing the bad genes on is horrible.

My main point is Health care is not always good. In a Capitalist system anyway. I am a staunch republican but my view is askew when it comes to medicine.  

Preventive medicine is good would be a better statement.
Vaccines and checkups  and genetic prescreening.

Just a thought