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215 comments on Sunday Open Thread

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BOP on March 26, 2006 - 1:00pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
 It would be interesting to try and develop a more formal proposal for a wind farm, or other solutions. These proposals would be available on TOD for review and further enhancement. Such an initiative and the resulting repository would accomplish a number of things:

 1) The amount of knowledge that "erupts" here is significant. At present there is no way to capture the key elements of a debate or expose them to later critique. Development of a "project" page, or an resource composed of "working papers" would avert transitional loss of intellectual capital.

 2) We often see the invocation of the "technological fairy," some technological fix which, if immediately applied, would resolve everything. The recent debate on Fusion power is one example. It would be just as worthwhile to identify technological dead ends as it would be to identify possible lines of solution.

 3) EROEI is a valuable concept. I had not seen this applied outside of anthropological studies of hunter-gatherer practice until I came to TOD. It would be worthwhile to do formal EROEI studies on such topics as fuel ethanol so that they can be revealed as bogus soluitions if that is in fact what they are. Such a resource would help prevent public bamboozlement and pork driven political decisions.

 4) The availability of working papers would help prevent us  from reiterating the exact same debate six months later. Xaxat recently provided an image which perfectly illustrates this lack of progress here:
http://www.gilbert-garcin.com/chrono/photos/photo_1999_4.php

 5) The compiled working papers would be available for public distribution as PDF or similar. This would help communicate the issues to a broader public.

 6) If a working paper indicates a solution that may be of economic significance then the co-op could coalesce around it. It would also be helpful to provide economic studies that highlight the technical, economic, or social roadblocks to a possible solution. Another reader may be able to innovate around those roadblocks and transform a "dead end" into a viable solution. I am taking for granted here that our bottom line is a search for viable solutions rather than individual economic return. Both would be nice.

 7) The working papers repository would provide a collection of studies that TOD might rework into publication form for general sale. This would both get the word out and provide economic sustenance to the TOD project.

 8) I am sure that there is an item 8 and equally sure that some other TODder has it on the tip of their keyboard. :-)

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Oilrig medic on March 26, 2006 - 1:10pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
BOP for your windfarm proposal what if capital was put forth by a group to say put a solar power system on JOE BLOWS roof.  Then He pays into the Co-op what he would normally pay the power company at the original KW hour price.  The Co op uses his wasted sunlight (or wind same priciple) and he secures constant price of energy.  since his system would be based on his need everything is god. A few years down the line when his system pays for itself he gets say 25%off. The Contract would have to attach to the deed and carry with a sale.

Against point #2 you can't rule out a dead end except in rare occasions (alchemy) some things are possible even though thought otherwise. I might be wrong fusion might not be possible but at this point I think it is not proven so.

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Oilrig medic on March 26, 2006 - 1:20pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I am pretty sure if a company like BP funded this they would get green credits or something like that for the project. I forget what the term is when a corporation cuts pollution somewhere else and gets to increase their emmissions a percentage of the reduced value.

Also If TSHTF the panels are on your home their yours.

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AlanfromBigEasy on March 26, 2006 - 6:14pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I think a special section of "Working Papers", with comments and suggestions logged, revisions made, etc. would be a worthwhile addition to TOD.  What to include and what not would be made by the editors of TOD.

I see my paper as the missing section/addendum to Hirsch's paper.

Best Hopes,

Alan

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BOP on March 26, 2006 - 7:24pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

 Alan -

 The amount of work you have done is impressive. But a lot of it is scattered through a wide range of posts. Having the information formally gathered in one place would be very helpful. My locality is seeking to expand light rail. Being able to educate myself, and/or provide a comprehensive, accurate resource to other concerned parties would be invaluable.

 I note that the NA car dependency arose in part due to the citizens blind acceptance of a development path espoused by vested economic interests. The entire US Inter-urban railway system was abandoned and in many cases this was due to oil or tire interests purchasing and then shutting down a potential competitor.

 Cheers!

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AlanfromBigEasy on March 26, 2006 - 8:57pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I cut my teeth locally with working to expand the streetcar system, and make sure expansions "worked".

Please eMail with where you are from, how much you want to get involved, some idea of any technical background, etc.

Best Hopes,

Alan_Drake@Juno.com

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wkwillis on March 27, 2006 - 6:08am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Oilrig Medic is right.
The Gas Diffusion process plant in the Manhattan Project almost didn't work because they couldn't get a filter that had the right size and range of holes to separate the two isotopes by their different relative velocities.
The technological fix to make it work was development of a way to make a filter with very small holes. I've heard from a family member that that technique was what started the Pall Corporation. You've probably seen their filters behind your plant, if you run a plant.
A napkin with some writing on it is the difference between a dead end technology and something that changes your world.
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