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22 comments on They see it here, they see it there, they see that Gazprom everywhere*

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And1 on April 13, 2006 - 4:18am Permalink | Subthread | Comments top
Hello and thanks to all for a incredibly informative discussion.
Regarding the Russian societal energy use you can study many details on this site. http://www.cenef.ru/indexen.htm
As all other nations Russia has to conserve- and has to be more energy efficient.
At this point I suggest that the TOD have a regular look at conservation.  We have to spend much less and more efficient. The "C" word must be made mainstream.

Citation from the site mentioned:
Russia's Energy Spending Is Almost Eight Times Higher Than Europe's
Vladimir Troyan, Pro-Rector for Science Research, St Petersburg State University

For each thousand dollars worth of her gross product, Russia spends 70 Giga-Joules of power. To compare with, the U.S. spends 14 GJ, and European countries, 9 GJ. This means that Russia's energy spending is almost eight times higher than Europe's. Of 100% of energy resources produced in Russia every year, we sell 35% to overseas, and we just lose 30%. All this is despite energy resources being an assurance of autonomous and stable development of the country, and energy industry issues are intrinsically related to foreign and domestic policies.

The problem is that Russia has no single strategic line for energy saving. If such a line were available, it would not be too hard to build up arrangements for interaction between state power and business.

Source: Kommersant, # 197 (# 3281), October 19, 2005 http://www.kommersant.ru/content.html?IssueId=23538
I can also recommend this presentation that has very useful data for the discussion of Russian energy spending.

http://www.cenef.ru/bulletin/HeatPaper.pdf

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totoneila on April 13, 2006 - 8:05am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Hello And1,

Thxs for responding.  Could you please give us more information on the 30% of Natgas that is just LOST?  Lost to theft? Lost to old leaking pipelines? Lost to flaring off? Lost to terror attacks on infrastructure? Lost to brutally cold weather fracturing welds and equipment?

Just imagine how many billions of dollars could be saved if you could stop this 30% loss!

Bob Shaw in Phx,AZ  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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mcgowanjm on April 13, 2006 - 10:49am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Hello Tot,

The Tragedy of the Commons is why Russia won't retrofit.

There is no immediate gain to be had.

The choice is Prevention/Redundancy v Growth.

If Russia picks P/R, it falls behind.

James

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totoneila on April 13, 2006 - 5:29pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Hello James,

I fully understand your point, but if the Russians only have a two or three year window before their civilization degrades down to the next energy level, even Putin is at great risk from the potential social upheaval.

Maybe that is why Dubai is growing so fast: the world's wealthy see this as a safety haven to retreat to while their native countries decline.

Bob Shaw in Phx,AZ  Are Humans Smarter than YEast?

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BabyPeanut on April 13, 2006 - 11:18am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Nigeria: Court Orders Shell to Stop Gas Flaring ... the world's biggest gas flarer, and the practice has contributed more greenhouse gas emissions than all other sources in sub-Saharan Africa combined. ... What happened today was the throwing of a long rope to Shell, hoping that they would for once toe the line of obedience to court orders. We expected Shell's application to be rejected, since the High Court had earlier ruled that gas flaring is illegal and criminal. As it stands, we urge Shell to respect this ruling by ensuring that its representative appear before the judge and that they show the world their detailed plan of action to stop gas flaring by April 2007.
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totoneila on April 13, 2006 - 5:14pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Hello BabyPeanut,

I am not a petro-expert, thus the following question.  Why is any flaring occurring anywhere?  You would think that any natgas is worth sending to market, or else repumping underground to be sold later.  Can someone explain to me why this is still occuring?  It seems like such a huge waste!

Bob Shaw in Phx,AZ  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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Leanan on April 13, 2006 - 5:19pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
You would have to build the infrastructure to get it to market, and that costs money no one wants to spend.  

Sometimes, not enough natural gas is flared to be worth it.   East Africa is probably the only area where significant amounts are still flared.

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BabyPeanut on April 13, 2006 - 7:46pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
We've already made the mistake of helping China have an industrial revolution and look what the consquences are.

If we help Africa have an industrial revolution too we will be competing with them for energy resources.

If you don't flare off natural gas it's probably worse for the greenhouse effects since methane are worse than those of carbon dioxide.

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LevinK on April 13, 2006 - 11:29am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
For each thousand dollars worth of her gross product, Russia spends 70 Giga-Joules of power

I find such assertions extremely irritating. Actually this is a typical example of double standards the West has been successfully used against 3rd world countries, mostly to manipulate its own public.

How can you even think of comparing Russian and Western countries by their official GDP and then pronouncing one of them "inefficient" on that basis? How much is the GDP/capita in Russia and Great Britain for example? How much of the GDP of Western countries (USA comes first to mind) is made out of overinflated services? How about comparing energy use per capita for a change? For those idiots writing such stuff I recommend living just one winter in West Siberia on $200 per month - this may change their perceptions. Or not.

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RussFag on April 13, 2006 - 6:05pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
For each thousand dollars worth of her gross product, Russia spends 70 Giga-Joules of power. To compare with, the U.S. spends 14 GJ, and European countries, 9 GJ. This means that Russia's energy spending is almost eight times higher than Europe's.

That indicates a very simple thing: an official Russia's GDP is significantly underestimated.
At least a half of russian companies pay their workers illegal screw (black money in envelop) to avoid taxes.
Many self-employed don't pay taxes at all hence they are not accounted for in official statistics.
And russian ruble is still undervalued.
But the situation changes. During the last six years the nominal russian GDP in US dollar terms grows by around 25% per year therefore the energy spending decreases by the same figure.

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westexas on April 13, 2006 - 7:24pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
This explains the high natural gas consumption--#2 behind the States.
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dissident on April 14, 2006 - 12:09am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
The comparisons are being done with the Russian GDP measured in nominal dollar terms.  Only amateurs would do this since the real size of the GDP is given in terms of purchasing power parity.  According to the CIA factbook Russia's GDP in PPP terms is about 1.4 trillion US dollars.  But as you point out the shadow econonmy (not criminal, but a legacy of heavy handed and ham fisted government policy) is around 40% or more so the final figure is closer to 2 trillion dollars.   This is almost four times the value that is being used in the comparisons.  So 70 GJ/4 = 17.5 GJ.  Considering that the US is nowhere near as cold as Russia this is figure is quite reasonable.  
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LevinK on April 14, 2006 - 11:48am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
To make a fair comparison we need to devide the residential and industrial/commercial energy usage. For industrial/commercial we can use the energy use per $ output (PPP adjusted), but for residential efficiency we have to use per capita comparison in order to be correct.

My guess is that the truth is (as always) in between - Russian energy use in the economy is inefficient, but nowhere near as inefficient as they are trying to present it. And there are reasons for that - the economy is weak (aside from the energy sector) and the money for efficiency invesments are simply nowhere to be found. Simply bashing Russian economy as "inefficient" is not helping at all.

For residential use, considering what Russians use the energy primary for (not freezing in the winter), and how we in the West use it (driving our cars) - the simple comparison of numbers poses some evident ethical questions.

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