Stoneleigh

You say....
"Perhaps now you risk the converse - holding on to bull market psychology at another time of impending reversal."

When you say "you risk" I assume your talking in the generic sense...I own no shares, and have little faith in the current bear market, which is what it is, by the way, we have been in a full secular bear market since 9-11-01, with stocks now getting out to a half decade with no real gain, if you count for inflation, plus the lost time, and the lost interest money that could have been earned at no risk, stocks have been a massive loss.  What you call the reversal is now a half decade old, despite attempts to recover since that time.  

You say....
"Roger, in the seventies you were sucked into the psychology of a bear market as were many, if not most, others."

True, but to limit the scope of the mood, the culture, the sheer shock of defeat and decline of the 1970's to just "a bear market" does not do the period the justice such a defining, declining deserves...

You see, We have seen post peak. Do you want to know what it looks like?

Go to the poor rural states in the South, and take a look at the scattered "basement homes", with nothing but a roof above ground, heated with nothing but a woodstove.  The "zero energy home" is not a high tech idea.

Look behind them or up in the shed, up on the blocks sit a Diesel Volkswagen Pickup truck, long ago broke down, now brown on the creases with rust as the paint disappears....these were capable of hauling firewood, commuting to work, and getting the kids to school.  With a stick shift, 50 plus miles per gallon  (Coca Cola Corp. used them as route trucks for their order takers and vending machine service....one Coca Cola route salesman told me how they knew when to take it to the shops and change the filters and check the timing of the injection pump...."we keep a log, and when it drops to 48 miles per gallon it goes to the shop."  This was in 1978.

Allow me to quote a bit of poetic nostalgia for the days that would never come again.  There is something haunting about people writing the chronicle of a dead or dying age.  Think of the Biblical passages of the Jews in exile..."we sat by the waters of the river and we wept for old Israel", or W.H. Auden as he sat in the dives, feeling the pain of a destroyed London in World War II....sad, but haunting and beautiful.

Now, for the 1970's version, I hold in my hands a treasured issue of "Automobile Quarterly"  Third Quarter, 1978.  The issue opens with an essay by a Stan Grayson, called "Garages".  It celebrates cars, but not cars out on the road.  Instead it celebrates cars as they consume no fuel, stored, treasured as art pieces in the garages of the nation, the world.  It is a haunting beautiful ode to the end of the auto age by a magazine and a writer who deeply love the auto age.  Allow me to give you a sample of the last two pagagraphs, describing the last garage examined in the essay.  
After describing the collection of a wealthy Wall Street broker, complete with V-12 Ferrari built into his home as a centerpiece beside which the owner can sit and eat dinner, we move to...

"...the opposite extreme is a young Firebird owner who lives in a small northeastern Pennsylvania city.  His little apartment is lined with hot rod magazines and Pontiac brochures among which are filed a few treasured letters from Pontiac executives responding  to some of his more esoteric mechanical queries.  The object of all his affections sits out in a detached and dingy alley way garage.  The building is red brick and there's a window at one end so grainy you can't see inside.

Open the door and you'll find an utterly immaculate red Firebird Trans Am crouching in the gloom.  It's got a Super Duty 455 in it, maybe the last really high performance V-8 Detroit will ever build.  In front of the car on a workbench is a set of pistons, on the floor, a set of specially prepared, flowed and polished cylinger heads.  There, hidden away with less than three-thousand miles on the odometer is just the sort of exciting, brutally fast car that the government and a changing world is going to eradicate.  Now, it goes out for an occasional midnight ride.  Think what it will be like to see the car still alive in that garage ten years from now-forty years from now.  It will be enough to make you very sad indeed."

Notice, please, there is no mention of seeing it on the road 10 years, 40 years from now...

Think about the time frames mentioned, 10 years from 1978, as the first of the V-10 Dodge Vipers came on the market, or now, with twin supercharged Porsches and Mustangs on the market, and 500 horsepower Corvettes taht also get over 20 miles per gallon....how could they have imagined in 1978, at that darkest hour for the automobile, for those who loved the powerful and fast auto, or the giant luxury trucks, (one writer called them "road locomotives") that the "last giant V-8"  would soon be rendered puny by a new muscle age and astounding advances in automotive technology?  

But, reread the piece above, WITHOUT knowing what was to follow, as I did for the first time at 19 years old....

No, the 1970's were not a "bear market".  For most people who read, studied and learned and payed attention, it was what the current peak folks call TEOTWAWNI.....the end as we knew it.  There was no doubt then....the fossil fuel era was over, the good times had ended, America, disgraced by Watergate and Vietnam was powerless, social, racial and sexual unrest was dismantling the nation as interest rates soured into the teens, unemployment soured past double digits, and the stock market spent a full decade running downward and sideways.  American airliners were hijacked almost weekly and blown up in the Arab desert, Iran held our hostages, and we were powerless to change a thing.  THIS we knew was the result of American wealth and power being drained away by oil, as Sheik Yamani of Saudi Arabia stood higher in respect and was more feared than our own American President Carter.

 We have already felt the sadness for a dying age.  And we knew, WITH CERTAINTY in 1978 that the markets would only go lower and lower, fuel shortages would only increase, prices of gas and oil would skyrocket past all ability to bear the cost.  Rodale Press published The Cornucopia Project, with long essays proving that food prices and transportatin combined with water crisis and soil erosion would soon result in massive price increases in food prices.  The price of Diesel and fertilizer would destroy the national food production system.  We knew that if all of this did not happen by the 1980's, it would surely happen by 1990.

For those of us old enough, and who paid attention, we have seen post peak.  We have seen "The End As We Knew It."
It was 28 years ago.

No one could imagine then that we were preparing to enter what even the greatest cynics would come to call "for most people, these really are the best years of their lives."  (Pat Buchanan, in reference to why it was almost impossible to stage an upset of his arch nemesis, Bill Clinton...in a shocking moment of candor by Mr. Buchanan).

But this time, it really could be different.  Like the economists who proudly proclaim that they have predicted 6 of the 4 recessions, sooner or later, we will run into hard times.  Sooner....or later....

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout


Correction:  I mispelled "TEOTWAWKI" !

I used the phonics method of spelling, and spelled "know" with an "n"
(TEOTWAWNI....The End Of The World As We No It?......sorry, it's late....

Roger Conner  Nown to you as  ThatsItImout  (hee, hee) :-)

There is something very tricky in this line of reasoning. I will try and simplify it. You state: We have had this prediction before and it failed therefore every such predictions will fail. But that is illogical to the extend that previous failures of prediction do not indicate that it will fail this time. Your way of reasoning resembles the man that smuggles a bomb in a plane and not detonates it for the sole reason that it would be highly improbable that *two* bombs would have been smuggled in a plane independantly, and thereby preventing an terrorist attack. To be short, this line of reasoning defies statistical mathematics.
Master p,

   What?

ThatsItImOut states that he is a optimist because previous pessimism has been proved wrong before. But statistics learns that previous results do not say anything about the chances of anything happening in the future.

Let me give you an example: Whenever you roll dice the chance to hit a "6" are 1 in 6. If you have rolled the dice hunderds of times before without hitting one single "6" you are inclined to believe that that has some influence on this time you will roll (Perhaps thinking that it has to finally be time for a "6"), but statistics learns it hasn't. The chance to hit a "6" still is 1 in 6.

This, to me, debunks stories that "we have seen pessimism not work before, therefore now I quit being a pessimist."

I see your point but I would examine the die to see if had been altered.  Optimism/pessimism is not just a straight course in statistics though.  Believing you can win often helps you do so.  Its not Faith or God or Luck, just the positive image of success in your mind can drive you.  And in complex scenarios positive thinking is crucial.  I have a duality of imagining whats the worst/best thing that could happen then forcing the best to be so.

I said what because I read your post about the bomb on the airplane and could not get your message.

Statistically you are right odds are odds and they are not changed by history.

Your point is well taken. However, the point of criticizing pessimism is not, I think, that it has failed to produce results till now but rather that pessimism usually rears its head as a fear, not as a rational prediction. Therefore, we should pay attention to the flashing red light but we should not try to interpret it as a logical argument.

If you look in various fields there have been many "doom lies ahead" arguments. I recall reading a book predicting a financial meltdown around the year 1990. EDN magazine in the early 1980s predicted a crisis in engineering as there would not be sufficient engineers to design electronic products. This was largely solved by the vast scale of chip integration which made it easier to build products with fewer engineers. A book about future problems I picked up written in the fifties predicted a shortage of chemical engineers (but totally neglected future problems with pollution). Currently some economists are predicting an economic meltdown due to the extraordinarily high debts we have run up.

It is not that any of these arguments were deeply flawed. It is just very difficult to predict the future. Also, things generally happen to mitigate the imagined problem. Personally, I don't agree with the doomers. Technically, it does seem clear that we are at or near peak oil production. It is the result that is in question. I think we will muddle through though there may be some hard times ahead.

Good post. There is widespread agreement on this site re oil depletion. Most of the disagreement concerns the results of oil depletion. The trend for the last 25+ years in the USA has been a widening of the gap between the financially successful and everyone else. For the top 20% of the population it has never been this good. Even if an economic tsunami hits, there is no reason to assume that this trend will not continue. Therefore, as others have stated and I think you are saying, figure out how to improve your financial situation (if that is your concern). Even if things become like Mad Max, the people that will survive and thrive will be the ones that can adapt to the new reality.  
When you say "you risk" I assume your talking in the generic sense...I own no shares, and have little faith in the current bear market, which is what it is, by the way, we have been in a full secular bear market since 9-11-01, with stocks now getting out to a half decade with no real gain, if you count for inflation, plus the lost time, and the lost interest money that could have been earned at no risk, stocks have been a massive loss.  What you call the reversal is now a half decade old, despite attempts to recover since that time.

The bear market actually began in 2000 when the NASDAQ peaked in March. The downward spike after 9/11 was the culmination of a larger downward move that had begun earlier. I agree with you that stocks have been a losing proposition since then. When I point to a reversal, I mean the end of the dead cat bounce that has been in effect since October 2002 - bounce that has had investors clinging (with a considerable degree of thinly disguised desperation IMO) to the old bull market optimism and assuming the old 'rules of the game' are still in force.

Not that I'm recommending that you, or anyone else, become pessimistic - far from it. What I am suggesting is that pessimism is about to become resurgent exactly as it was in the seventies because the psychology of a bear market is 'catching'. If you recognize it for what it is, then you can be forwarned as to the prevailing attitudes of the majority, and the consequences that will flow from those attitudes, while avoiding being sucked into it yourself. That route means losing hope, as happened to so many three decades ago, and is couterproductive.

Prevailing attitudes are inherently temporary, although they may persist for relatively long periods of time - long enough for economic, social, and political consequences to result (see my comment further down this thread). I expect this bear market to be considerably more severe than the seventies and to last for longer, but I do not expect a final and permanent decline as in Olduvai theory. In that sense I am optimistic - I am expecting future upbeat and expansionist phases, but perhaps not for a long time.

And we knew, WITH CERTAINTY in 1978 that the markets would only go lower and lower, fuel shortages would only increase, prices of gas and oil would skyrocket past all ability to bear the cost.

That is exactly the prevailing psychology of a major bear market bottom, but it is an emotional certainty. Successful investors look for that kind of wholesale capitulation to a trend as a signal to begin investing again. Similarly, successful investors regarded the ubiquitous optimism of the dot com boom as a warning that a trend reversal was coming and pulled money out of the market (selling stocks to the unsuspecting public just in time to leave them holding the empty bag).


Excellent point at the close of your post Stoneleigh', "Wholesale capitulation" is the key....

I don't think we have seen anything like the "wholesale capitulation" of the 1970's yet...

Most folks are still in the "it's just a scam" phase, but "it always goes back up..."

When everyone, not just the peak oil aware become convinced as they did in the 1970's that "the market economy is finished",  "this time it is different, it won't rebound from this", and "buy a shack out in the country, it's time to run...", that is when the turn comes....we have only seen that sort of thinking....well, here.

But, your right...look for the capitulation in the mainstream....that is no where in sight....yet.

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

You're quite right that we haven't see anything like the wholesale capitulation of the seventies - in fact we haven't even reached the point of recognition of the bear market trend yet among the general public, despite a bear market that has already lasted six years. That's why people are still thinking it will all go back up again - bull market thinking still prevails. Funnily enough, Morgan Stanley permabear Stephen Roach finally capitulated to the bulls a couple of weeks ago, just in time for the bear market to resume!

I suspect the point of recognition will be seen this year, but that will still be relatively early in a trend with a lot further to go to the downside. I would be inclined to look for a market bottom in the first half of the next decade, with an economic depression (a lagging indicator)continuing for at least several years after that as happened in the thirties. Various investments may begin to make sense again by the second half of the next decade, but by then it should feel like the seventies only much worse and everyone is likely to be telling you that you'd have to be crazy to invest. In that pessimistic abyss, opportunities should begin to present themselves. The difficulty will be resisting the impulse to give in to the prevailing negative mood despite relentlessly negative news and social pressure to conform. You need nerves of steel to buy low (when everyone is telling you things can only go downhill from here) and sell high (when everyone is piling in to the market and telling you how foolish you are to sell).