I have a couple of questions for US-based TODders regarding commuting. One of the acknowledged characteristics of the US labor market is employees' willingness to relocate when changing jobs. In fact, unemployment rates here in Europe are routinely blamed, in part, on people's refusal to look for jobs beyond their region. With that in mind, you guys sure seem to do a lot of intense, long-range commuting by car - which seems to me like a contradiction. After all, if I'm to move because of a job, I might as well move as close to it as possible. My guess regarding the reasons for the contradiction is a combination of factors:

  1. There isn't that much long-range commuting going on and the amount of coverage it receives at TOD is out of proportion, with the worst cases making up a body of patchy anecdotal evidence.

  2. Due to a combination of ample free space and over-zealous zoning laws, minimum possible distance between home and workplace can be substantial.

  3. Neigborhoods which are not strictly residential are considered (or maybe actually are) unsafe due to traffic or crime. Employees are willing to sacrifice hours of commuting time each day to avoid these problems.

  4. A large, good-looking house is highly desirable in the American culture for aesthetic or social status reasons. Employees are willing to sacrifice hours of commuting time each day to enjoy such housing.

  5. Apart from a few exceptions, there is no tradition of high-density residential development as there is in Europe. In other words, most Americans "don't know any better".

These are just my impressions, any further enlightenment is highly appreciated.

Another question: I was a high-school student in rural Wisconsin about twelve years ago - have there been any major changes in urbanization patterns since then, or was it as bad then as it is now? (I wasn't aware of any issues at the time, obviously, maybe apart from inner-city crime).

"After all, if I'm to move because of a job, I might as well move as close to it as possible."

A very European attitude, don't you think? If gas is cheap enough, distance becomes less of an issue, especially when you have no choice anyway.

Well, what would bother me more than the money is the time and effort involved. I do enjoy driving but there are a ton of things I enjoy much more, and being forced to spend so much time driving each day would be a major issue. Do you guys enjoy driving so much or is your time not that expensive? Or are you simply resigned to the status quo?
"Do you guys enjoy driving so much or is your time not that expensive? Or are you simply resigned to the status quo?"

Though I'm an American, I'm not one of "you guys" as I live in Germany. It doesn't sound like any of "those guys" felt addressed by your post. Of course, there aren't that many of them at TOD.

My attitude is similar to yours. I drive when I have to, but I take the train when I can. To me, driving to work is a complete waste of time. But many people (here too) really are forced to drive, or at least feel that they are, or feel "freer" driving.

The points you listed in your original post explain the situation well enough. The zoning in many areas pretty much forces people to drive. Cheap gas made driving more bearable, and cheap credit allowed people to buy bigger cars and build bigger houses farther away. That brought them to where they are now.

Back in the day, I put my belongings in storage and spent a year living in the office. I could get away with it; most people can't even consider such a possibility. No rent, relatively little driving. It was the best year of my life up till then. I paid off my debts and haven't been in debt since. Even then, I wasn't a typical American.

SE Wisconsin continues the pattern you must have seen 12 years back of rapid suburbanization.
Whatever absolute figures may be longrange commutes are considered normal. I have a neighbor who commutes 5 days a week from home in Chicago to Manhattan, no one blinks an eye.
That's incredible. The phrase "get a life" comes to mind.
I'd say the right answer is #4.  

The U.S. was a country of farmers only a few generations ago, and it shows in the our preferred housing.  Suburban homes are symbolic farms, with back yards instead of the back forty.  

Laura Ingalls Wilder's father used to say that when you could see the smoke from your neighbor's house, it was time to move on, and a lot of Americans seem to have similar ideas.  My boss grew up in a row house in Boston, and hated it.  He now lives a 45 minute commute away from his job, on five acres so he won't have any neighbors.  

"He now lives a 45 minute commute away from his job, on five acres so he won't have any neighbors."

What's so funny about this is that just this spring, as I visited the 138-acre family ranch in East Texas, I sat outside at night with a camp-fire crackling in the woods, and could hear the neighbor's music blaring away, from a home at least a half-mile off...

It's apparent that even 5-acres (and 138) is just symbolic isolation.  Perhaps a penthouse apartment downtown may provide a greater sense of distance from the rest of the populace. If that is what one seeks.

-best

"Perhaps a penthouse apartment downtown may provide a greater sense of distance from the rest of the populace"

Ummm... well if we have another blackout and the elevator fails to appear when summoned I'd say you would be right for sure. Most would rather walk a mile in the outdoors than up 40 flights of stairs in the dark ;)

As another John Milton said

When I consider how my light is spent,
 Ere half my days in this dark world and wide

But those 40 flights would be so invigorating! Though one might get a bit dizzy goin' round and round... ;o)
Nah.  He really lives out in the sticks.  One morning, he was late to work because there was a black bear in his driveway, and he was afraid to leave the house.  

For many, though, it is symbolic isolation.  Those huge McMansions on relatively small lots, for example.  

IMO, it's not so much the noise as the sheer human presence.  People want to putter around their homes and yards without having to talk to their neighbors.  

I live in an apartment complex, and I confess, I often do things at night, so I don't have to deal with my neighbors.  Take out the trash, do the laundry, etc.  Not that they're bad neighbors.  I just don't want to deal with them.


Oh, fer christsake - what a pussy.  A black bear, and I suppose there wasn't even a cub around.  I have seen many black bears in the wild, and it really isn't a big deal.
Just tap the horn and it will run off into the woods.
Well, like I said, he's a city boy.  Born and raised in Boston.  

And we have had some surprisingly aggressive black bears around here.  One pulled a toddler out of a stroller on the porch as its mother was trying to get her other kids inside.  The bear killed the kid, and the cops eventually killed the bear.

Leanan -

That wasn't in NY was it - I remember a couple years back that same kind of incident happened near the Catskills.  Maybe the same one ?

My sister has been much troubled on her five acres in the foothills of the California Sierra by a black bear that kills her chickens (by breaking fences, etc.), and the DNR is so backlogged (read underfunded) that the one trapper guy who has a HUGE area to cover won't get there for weeks--or until somebody's kid is mutilated or killed. For various reasons, I think there has been a black bear population explosion in many areas.

The auto body shops love the black bears. You hit one doing sixty miles an hour in your full-size newish SUV and do about $15,000-25,000 of damage--not quite enough to total out a valuable vehicle, but enough to make several boat payments;-)

Well, I lived in an apartment block more or less my entire life and it was the same as you describe. I'm shy by nature and many times have I chosen the stairs when I saw that someone was coming down in the elevator, just not to have to talk to them. But it always bothered me and I always told myself that once I move into my own I would actively seek contact with the neighbors (I have learned to overcome my shyness over the years a bit).

A few months ago I did move into another apartment block across the city, in a beautiful quiet area. It is a small block (36 apartments in total) and my plan is in progress, albeit slowly and in unexpected ways. There are 3 stairways in the house, 12 apartments each. I am disappointed in the neighbors living in my stairway - they are polite but uninterested in any contact beyond the obligatory greeting. There is one exception - a retired guy who is a part-time janitor for the whole house. Very polite yet never annoying. Just brightens up your day.

Most of my contacts, however, are with two neighbors from the other stairways. One is a thirtysomething teacher who I met at the apartment owners meeting (most owners at the meeting were over 50, younger people generally don't care about such things). We've exchanged visits and my girlfriend even takes care of her dog sometimes. Another neighbor I talk to is a guy who started organizing people interested in high-speed Internet (no-one here has broadband yet and if there are at least X subscribers in the same house you can get bulk rates). So slowly but surely I'm building up social capital.

I think relationships with neighbors are an interesting challenge. You don't want them to be your best buddies (they're tough to avoid when you fall out over something) but you don't want them to be strangers, either (who knows when you might need them). You also have to tread a fine line between tolerance and assertivity. I always felt, though, that avoiding neighbors is a wrong response to the challenge.

2, 3 and 4 are the reasons, and 5 is also in most of the country.
Agreed, plus in many urban areas halfway decent housing in the city itself is so expensive that families with modest incomes end up in the outer suburbs, farther out each year.  

A couple of random collected thoughts....

First you have to define "long-range".  60 miles each way?  100 miles each way?  Those folks are indeed rare.

One complicating factor is that you have married couples both of whom have jobs.  One may change jobs, but if they move to be closer to that job then the other one might be further.

Another complicating factor is affordability - housing closer in tends to be a lot more expensive.  On the flip side though, there are lots of people who wouldn't consider a condo or apartment and just gotta have that standalone house, and if that's what you want then you end up living further out.  Another complicating factor is just the crass materialism in our country - this causes people to buy lots of crap, and if you have lots of crap, then you need a larger house to hold all of that crap.

Some of the problems are self-inflicted by goverments.  There is this tendancy to have separate areas for businesses and housing, and they aren't always close to each other.  In fact, inner suburbs have tended to emphasize office buildings, which means that there is insufficient housing nearby for all of the people who work in those office buildings.

There was a 15 minutes news story on CBS morning yesterday about people with problems of getting rid of their junk.  Something like $6B gets spent on "organize consultants."  It was something to see with these people and all their JUNK!
In NYC storage container warehouses seem to be a growth industry. I've noticed three new ones on my path to work.
We used oned for a couple months while we were between houses, but we never thought about paying to keep crap stored.  They have auctions all the time too, where you can bid on boxes sight unseen and there have been some rather valuable deals.
Another issue is the problem with spouses that have jobs that are quite a distance apart. This happens quite often with professionals, because jobs are not concentrated in the centers of cities. If a couple is close to one job, the other has a long commute.

I work in the Buckhead area of Atlanta (which is farther from home than downtown Atlanta). My husband teaches at Kennesaw State University, in a suburb of Atlanta. We live near my husband's work, making a long commute for me.

Then there are couples who "split the difference."  I know one family where he works in Poughkeepsie, and she works in Albany.  So they live in Columbia County, where they each drive about an hour to work.
Considering that I am in the relocation business and I alot of tthe higher management types, I would go with answer #4. Most of these upper management types move from one Mcmansion to another one with an emphasis on going bigger.. This has been he trend over the past 4 years that I have been relocating these people. Although there are always exceptions to the rules and a few people are actually trying to downsize but they are in the minority!! It would appear that most are still not worried about the commute or the costs..

But on the good news front, my brother may have sold his Mcmansion in Orlando and is going to downsize in the big way despite his wife's objections..

My impression is that the exurban growth pattern has really taken off in the past 12 years.  I hadn't heard the term exurban twelve years ago although I certainly had seen that sort of housing development before then.

I think one of the key reasons for the long commute is the undesirability of the inner suburbs as a place to raise a family. This isn't necessarily because of crime,  it is also because of the quality of schools,  the busy streets and the air polution.  When people have children they will sacrifice almost anything including many hours of their life commuting so that their children have the right environment in which to grow.

In my opinion, raising children has something to do with people's choices of where to live. Quite simply, people raising children almost always want houses with yards. Suburbs and exurbs also usually have good school systems, extensive athletic fields, etc. Exurbs have traditionally provided the most economic value (i.e. houses, yards, school systems and the like for the money). Commuting costs are often not even factored in to people's buying decisions. My guess is that this is starting to change, albeit slowly.

Furthermore, once settled, people are reluctant to move as their children become embedded into their schools and neighborhoods. Hence, commutes often get worse as people's jobs change while their kids are growing up.

One final perceived advantage of an exburb is that young families often want to build a new house and it's often easier and less expensive to build a new house in an exurb than it is in an older more fully built inner suburb.

I don't fully understand why so many people are willing to build huge houses on small lots, thereby giving up most of what could be nice yards.
 

I would like to thank you all for such thoughtful and illuminating answers. They don't paint a pretty picture, I have to admit. Some radical attitude adjustments are bound to happen - voluntarily or otherwise. In contrast to most people this side of Atlantic, I think there are things to be learned from Americans - like resilience, confidence and self-reliance. But it seems your healthy self-reliance has grown into an absurd allergy to sharing. I don't know how to fix that but I hope you figure it out.
For a great book-length answer to your question, consider reading "crabgrass frontier" by Kenneth Jackson:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195049837/102-2973107-9492943?v=glance&n=283155

I live in a rural county.  The "American Dream" around here is to have a lot of land so that you can't even see any of your neighbors.  Nearly everyone who can afford it lives on a mult-acre lot and commutes on back country roads to work.  The land is very cheap, and until recently, the extra driving might only cost you a dollar or two a day.  All of these properties are on former farms.  As farming became unprofitable, the 150 acre farms got bought by an investor, who then sold it off in multiple 5 to 20 acre parcels for individual development.  If grain production continues to drop, however, one good thing is that this land can be easily converted back to a farm.  For some strange reason, these people insist on mowing their lawns.  It's not unusual to maintain 10 acres of lawn even though they never use it at all (unless you consider 5 hours every weekend on a riding lawn mower to be enjoyable).  I live in town.  If I lived out in the country and I wasn't running a farm, I would want to live in the woods, not in the middle of 20 acres of grass.  It seems that people around here have a strange notion that we have to tame nature.  That keeping a lawn is somehow improving the land, whereas to let it grow wild and back into a maple-beech forest would somehow be a moral failing.  

If you're going to go for woods, you might as well plant the tree variety you want and create a harvesting plan. Some maple that you tap for your own syrup, fruit and nut trees that are climate appropriate that you harvest your own, this would be practical use of the land and you could keep some lawn for the kids to play games in. I can't understand mowing that much lawn. Whatever do they do with the clippings?
yea I agree with your idea to cultivate useful trees in a wooded lot.  Since land is so cheap around here (for now), and especially if it's still cheap once I get my student loans paid off, I'm considering buying some land to use for just this purpose.  I think timber will become more valuable post-peak for two reasons:
first more people will try to heat their homes with wood as other energy sources become more expensive (this is already happening around here)
Second, plastics and metals will be more expensive and more difficult to produce, and wood or wood by-products can make an affordable substitute for many applications.
Furthermore, displaced farm land will probably rise in value post-peak.  Crop yields are already dropping as per the above discussion and this type of land may become viable again for farming.
How U.S. Homes Are Hurt by Rising Energy Prices

Those who are furthest from their jobs are most vulnerable to energy-cost run-ups. As home prices rose in the frothiest areas, homebuyers mainly have done two things to augment house affordability: They financed with risky, interest-only loans to ensure the lowest-possible payments and moved farther out from employment centers, where prices are lower.

It's not unusual for commuters to drive more than 60 miles (97 kilometers) one-way in southern or northern California or for New York-bound workers to live in eastern Pennsylvania. This has happened where houses were already priced well above the national average. Four-hour commutes aren't unusual now around several large cities.


We are looking for a place near Lamoni,Iowa to move to so my daughter can live off campus. Part of my calculations was how far away we could live and still pay less for gas than for the dormitory ($2500/semester).  Based on $3 gas and 75 days of class/semester and 30 mpg I concluded we could live 133 miles away and still pay less. Of course we won't be that far away but it shows some of the lengths people go to save money but not fuel.
... let alone time.
Almost thirty years ago I built my house in Grand Rapids, Minnesota about four blocks from an elementary school, seven blocks from the Middle School, less than a mile from the high school, and easy walking distance (about two miles) from the community college where I worked and where my kids started their higher educations. Back when I was married, my wife worked at the hospital, about a mile from our house. With four kids active in all sorts of activities, we were able to get by with one car, good winter boots, and a bicycle for each family member.

I remember in Econ class back in the early eighties when the price of gasoline came up, and I happened to mention that for a month I spent between seven and eight dollars for gasoline in one typical month, winter and summer. The students were incredulous; some burned 200 gallons in a weekend of water skiing.

Why drive when you can walk or bike or take the bus?

And power boats? An experiment that failed;-)

#'s 2, 3, 4, 5, = yes

Suburbanization pattern = accelerated and worse.