135 comments on DrumBeat: July 24, 2006
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
135 comments on DrumBeat: July 24, 2006
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
- Passive Solar Design Overview – Part 1
- Radical Retrenchment - A Reference Model
- TOD:Campfire RSS feed
TOD:Europe
- Energy Policy: SER-2 [01] Introduction
- The Russian Bear?
- The Permanent Oil Crisis Conference in Amsterdam, January 21 & 22, 2009
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- The Bullroarer - Friday 9th January 2009
- 2009: Predictions for Australia
- The Bullroarer - Tuesday 6th January 2009
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- The Energy Blog
- Entropy Production
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
“The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…”
—Winston Churchill, November 1936
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Prof. Goose, Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Heading Out
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Khebab, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Local: Glenn
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.





GAIA Host Collective
These are just my impressions, any further enlightenment is highly appreciated.
Another question: I was a high-school student in rural Wisconsin about twelve years ago - have there been any major changes in urbanization patterns since then, or was it as bad then as it is now? (I wasn't aware of any issues at the time, obviously, maybe apart from inner-city crime).
A very European attitude, don't you think? If gas is cheap enough, distance becomes less of an issue, especially when you have no choice anyway.
Though I'm an American, I'm not one of "you guys" as I live in Germany. It doesn't sound like any of "those guys" felt addressed by your post. Of course, there aren't that many of them at TOD.
My attitude is similar to yours. I drive when I have to, but I take the train when I can. To me, driving to work is a complete waste of time. But many people (here too) really are forced to drive, or at least feel that they are, or feel "freer" driving.
The points you listed in your original post explain the situation well enough. The zoning in many areas pretty much forces people to drive. Cheap gas made driving more bearable, and cheap credit allowed people to buy bigger cars and build bigger houses farther away. That brought them to where they are now.
Back in the day, I put my belongings in storage and spent a year living in the office. I could get away with it; most people can't even consider such a possibility. No rent, relatively little driving. It was the best year of my life up till then. I paid off my debts and haven't been in debt since. Even then, I wasn't a typical American.
Whatever absolute figures may be longrange commutes are considered normal. I have a neighbor who commutes 5 days a week from home in Chicago to Manhattan, no one blinks an eye.
The U.S. was a country of farmers only a few generations ago, and it shows in the our preferred housing. Suburban homes are symbolic farms, with back yards instead of the back forty.
Laura Ingalls Wilder's father used to say that when you could see the smoke from your neighbor's house, it was time to move on, and a lot of Americans seem to have similar ideas. My boss grew up in a row house in Boston, and hated it. He now lives a 45 minute commute away from his job, on five acres so he won't have any neighbors.
What's so funny about this is that just this spring, as I visited the 138-acre family ranch in East Texas, I sat outside at night with a camp-fire crackling in the woods, and could hear the neighbor's music blaring away, from a home at least a half-mile off...
It's apparent that even 5-acres (and 138) is just symbolic isolation. Perhaps a penthouse apartment downtown may provide a greater sense of distance from the rest of the populace. If that is what one seeks.
-best
Ummm... well if we have another blackout and the elevator fails to appear when summoned I'd say you would be right for sure. Most would rather walk a mile in the outdoors than up 40 flights of stairs in the dark ;)
When I consider how my light is spent,
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide
For many, though, it is symbolic isolation. Those huge McMansions on relatively small lots, for example.
IMO, it's not so much the noise as the sheer human presence. People want to putter around their homes and yards without having to talk to their neighbors.
I live in an apartment complex, and I confess, I often do things at night, so I don't have to deal with my neighbors. Take out the trash, do the laundry, etc. Not that they're bad neighbors. I just don't want to deal with them.
Oh, fer christsake - what a pussy. A black bear, and I suppose there wasn't even a cub around. I have seen many black bears in the wild, and it really isn't a big deal.
Just tap the horn and it will run off into the woods.
And we have had some surprisingly aggressive black bears around here. One pulled a toddler out of a stroller on the porch as its mother was trying to get her other kids inside. The bear killed the kid, and the cops eventually killed the bear.
That wasn't in NY was it - I remember a couple years back that same kind of incident happened near the Catskills. Maybe the same one ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5067912.stm
The auto body shops love the black bears. You hit one doing sixty miles an hour in your full-size newish SUV and do about $15,000-25,000 of damage--not quite enough to total out a valuable vehicle, but enough to make several boat payments;-)
A few months ago I did move into another apartment block across the city, in a beautiful quiet area. It is a small block (36 apartments in total) and my plan is in progress, albeit slowly and in unexpected ways. There are 3 stairways in the house, 12 apartments each. I am disappointed in the neighbors living in my stairway - they are polite but uninterested in any contact beyond the obligatory greeting. There is one exception - a retired guy who is a part-time janitor for the whole house. Very polite yet never annoying. Just brightens up your day.
Most of my contacts, however, are with two neighbors from the other stairways. One is a thirtysomething teacher who I met at the apartment owners meeting (most owners at the meeting were over 50, younger people generally don't care about such things). We've exchanged visits and my girlfriend even takes care of her dog sometimes. Another neighbor I talk to is a guy who started organizing people interested in high-speed Internet (no-one here has broadband yet and if there are at least X subscribers in the same house you can get bulk rates). So slowly but surely I'm building up social capital.
I think relationships with neighbors are an interesting challenge. You don't want them to be your best buddies (they're tough to avoid when you fall out over something) but you don't want them to be strangers, either (who knows when you might need them). You also have to tread a fine line between tolerance and assertivity. I always felt, though, that avoiding neighbors is a wrong response to the challenge.
A couple of random collected thoughts....
First you have to define "long-range". 60 miles each way? 100 miles each way? Those folks are indeed rare.
One complicating factor is that you have married couples both of whom have jobs. One may change jobs, but if they move to be closer to that job then the other one might be further.
Another complicating factor is affordability - housing closer in tends to be a lot more expensive. On the flip side though, there are lots of people who wouldn't consider a condo or apartment and just gotta have that standalone house, and if that's what you want then you end up living further out. Another complicating factor is just the crass materialism in our country - this causes people to buy lots of crap, and if you have lots of crap, then you need a larger house to hold all of that crap.
Some of the problems are self-inflicted by goverments. There is this tendancy to have separate areas for businesses and housing, and they aren't always close to each other. In fact, inner suburbs have tended to emphasize office buildings, which means that there is insufficient housing nearby for all of the people who work in those office buildings.
I work in the Buckhead area of Atlanta (which is farther from home than downtown Atlanta). My husband teaches at Kennesaw State University, in a suburb of Atlanta. We live near my husband's work, making a long commute for me.
But on the good news front, my brother may have sold his Mcmansion in Orlando and is going to downsize in the big way despite his wife's objections..
I think one of the key reasons for the long commute is the undesirability of the inner suburbs as a place to raise a family. This isn't necessarily because of crime, it is also because of the quality of schools, the busy streets and the air polution. When people have children they will sacrifice almost anything including many hours of their life commuting so that their children have the right environment in which to grow.
Furthermore, once settled, people are reluctant to move as their children become embedded into their schools and neighborhoods. Hence, commutes often get worse as people's jobs change while their kids are growing up.
One final perceived advantage of an exburb is that young families often want to build a new house and it's often easier and less expensive to build a new house in an exurb than it is in an older more fully built inner suburb.
I don't fully understand why so many people are willing to build huge houses on small lots, thereby giving up most of what could be nice yards.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0195049837/102-2973107-9492943?v=glance&n=283155
I live in a rural county. The "American Dream" around here is to have a lot of land so that you can't even see any of your neighbors. Nearly everyone who can afford it lives on a mult-acre lot and commutes on back country roads to work. The land is very cheap, and until recently, the extra driving might only cost you a dollar or two a day. All of these properties are on former farms. As farming became unprofitable, the 150 acre farms got bought by an investor, who then sold it off in multiple 5 to 20 acre parcels for individual development. If grain production continues to drop, however, one good thing is that this land can be easily converted back to a farm. For some strange reason, these people insist on mowing their lawns. It's not unusual to maintain 10 acres of lawn even though they never use it at all (unless you consider 5 hours every weekend on a riding lawn mower to be enjoyable). I live in town. If I lived out in the country and I wasn't running a farm, I would want to live in the woods, not in the middle of 20 acres of grass. It seems that people around here have a strange notion that we have to tame nature. That keeping a lawn is somehow improving the land, whereas to let it grow wild and back into a maple-beech forest would somehow be a moral failing.
first more people will try to heat their homes with wood as other energy sources become more expensive (this is already happening around here)
Second, plastics and metals will be more expensive and more difficult to produce, and wood or wood by-products can make an affordable substitute for many applications.
Furthermore, displaced farm land will probably rise in value post-peak. Crop yields are already dropping as per the above discussion and this type of land may become viable again for farming.
I remember in Econ class back in the early eighties when the price of gasoline came up, and I happened to mention that for a month I spent between seven and eight dollars for gasoline in one typical month, winter and summer. The students were incredulous; some burned 200 gallons in a weekend of water skiing.
Why drive when you can walk or bike or take the bus?
And power boats? An experiment that failed;-)
Suburbanization pattern = accelerated and worse.