<Lies, Damned Lies and Government Oil Production Forecasts?The Oil DrumASPO-USA: 2006 Boston World Oil Conference>

135 comments on A Late Day DrumBeat, just for ha-has...

Comments can no longer be added to this story.

davidsmi on October 17, 2006 - 7:28pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I'm wondering what this "far left" party line is that you talk about. I've been studying politics for 30 years and have never seen evidence of more than a smattering of leftists in this country. I'm not talking about democrat leftists, who would, in most places in the world be to the right of center. I'm talking your dyed in the wool leftists, you know, socialists, communists. Hey, I'd settle for your basic social democrat.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
SelfAggrandizedTrader on October 17, 2006 - 7:41pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
To me, it doesn't have to do with left or right.  It's the partisanship that drives me crazy.  Like this article.  It's driven purely by partisanship.  At this point, I could do without either party.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
davidsmi on October 17, 2006 - 7:47pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I've voted in every election since I was old enough to do so. I can honestly say that when it comes to voting for president, I have never voted for either a Republican or a Democrat. I don't even consider them to be two sides of the same coin - they're two layers of non-precious metal on the same side of the coin.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
memmel on October 18, 2006 - 12:44am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

When I lived in Northern Utah they had the crazy ant-government
people running for office. I think they claimed to be libertarian cant remember. In any case they had a lot of support so I decided to vote for them. A few actually won and it was comic seeing how they acted in office. Sort of like Hamas now. It just shows that the elected officials have little control over the machines they inherit. And ruling a country is about first controlling the machine, compromise with with your neighbors machine and finally move your political agenda forward. Today neither Bush not Hamas is willing to play the game and look at the consequences.
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Jack on October 17, 2006 - 9:06pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
it doesn't have to do with left or right.  It's the partisanship that drives me crazy.

Exactly. If the commenter had said that you were "just like your hero Michael Moore", I would reacted exactly the same way, but substituted the word right for left.

I do think the "hero" commenter provided us with a great exaple of the argue by insult methodology utilized by ideologues on both sides of the sectrum.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
BrianT on October 17, 2006 - 7:52pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
David:Jack blames everything and the weather on those crazy "leftists". They are just one vote from taking over and eating your children. In reality, the USA in 1976 was far more "left" than it is now and likely to be in the future. The socialist/leftist advances in USA society from the late 40s to the late 70s built the middle class and the overall economic strength of the country. What is remaining in 2006 is a financial economy based on equity and real estate speculation, and record levels of debt.    
0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Jack on October 17, 2006 - 8:49pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
No. I highly value the thoughts and political contributions of those on both the left and right who try to advance their positions by debate, education and persuasion.

I am equally dismissive of the far right and far left ideologues who see any position more than one degree away from them as Satanic.

I see the far left and the right right as equally complicit in scare mongering, enemy-building and demonizing those who don't agree with them. To me George Bush building up the "Axis of Evil" as some scary puppet to wave in front of people is no different that the left trying to continually build up bush as a scary puppet to wave in front of everyone.

Does anyone reading this really think that SAT gave any indication that he sees George Busgh as a hero? No, that was completely made up and is typical of the thinking of the Bush-obsessive.

BrianT is amomg the worst of them. No matter how many times I said that I deplore Bush and think he may be the worst president the US will ever have BrianT relishes every opportunity to compare me to Bush or Cheney. I understand that this is because BrianT and others are incapable of discussing issues based on facts and analysis and so need to support their points with insults and falsehoods.

Were members of the far right commenting on TOD, or if the far right had surrendered any credibility among voters in the way that the far left has, I would have noted that too.

I would like to see a stronger opposition to Bush and a platform that provides Americans with options that they will vote for.

I think the far left has abdicated responsibility by abandoning discourse and falling in to a hysterical fit of insult making that is pitiful and highly damaging to the US.

When the vast majority of the US has indicated that they disapprove of Bush and the collapse of his regime is imminent, it is a trgaedy that the greatest contribution from those that should be providing an alternative is list of silly nicknames and websites that expound any idea, no matter how speculative to eager fans who consume it without thinking.

What are you going to do with your life in two years when Bush is gone? Invent another enemy?

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Dave Cohen on October 17, 2006 - 9:03pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Although you seem temperate in your remarks, here, the problem is that crazies are running the show now, got it? And they are not liberals. Your "middle of the road" comments do not reflect reality.

You want to argue? Argue with me. Arguing against the far left crazies is a straw man.

Re: I would like to see a stronger opposition to Bush and a platform that provides Americans with options that they will vote for

Fine, provide me with the source code -- I am a software engineer, or at least I was, now retired -- for the software in the Diebold voting machines. Then, get back to me. If it checks out, OK.

What a crock of shit.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Jack on October 17, 2006 - 9:32pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
My point is that we need to get rid of the crazies running the show. But convincing voters that you may be the only people who are actually crazier seems an odd way to go about it.

I am trying to argue with you, but you want me to try to find source code for Diebold and can't say anything about this point:

I would like to see a stronger opposition to Bush and a platform that provides Americans with options that they will vote for

Other than it is a crock of shit? Why bother?

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Dave Cohen on October 17, 2006 - 10:20pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I am trying really hard to make sense of your reply. So far, no luck. The connection between "stronger opposition to Bush" and the Diebold voting machines (especially in Ohio, 2004) seems so obvious to me that I can not for the life of me see why you refuse to see it.

The late Diebold was a heavy supporter of and contributor to the Republican party, a huge Bush supporter. I want to see the source code, which nobody has yet seen.

Where, exactly, does your confusion lay here? I am saying there is a strong possible conflict of interest and subsequent corruption & malfeasance regarding the electoral process. Florida, 2000? Katherine Harris? Supreme Court -- 5 to 4, decided the election. Does any of this ring a bell?

So, where's your confusion? What, do you think the world just works in some rational, orderly fashion which disregards human nature as manifested in politics altogether????

You're not that naive, right? Please tell me it's not so, OK?

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
expat on October 18, 2006 - 2:09am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
You realize that other voting machine companies have been required to provide source code, and refuse - it seems as if they have to provide that, our way of life would lay in tatters on the floor, since those companies would no longer be able to earn a living, or something. It is the 'something' which remains so interesting. There are plenty of great sources of information on how to manipulate voting machines (for example, Diebold itself - http://www.siliconvalleysleuth.com/2006/08/diebold_gives_a.html)

Actually, the same applies to allowing a defendant to examine the software in radar guns, except in those cases, we aren't talking about such major issue - and the judge threw out the cases when the manufacturer refused to comply.

Sadly, the same just doesn't work with elections.

But to add a note of realism - vote stealing is one of the oldest American political realities, and thinking it is somehow new or modern is just silly. Heck, even the Jim Crow laws were modern compared to how the Constitution classified voters - you know, no women, no Indians, and in the slave states, no slaves. Or the fact that direct election of senators is also a modern innovation.

Just because they teach you in school that America is a shining beacon of democracy doesn't actually mean that what you were taught is reality. And yes, there are a number of systems worse than America's - just because something isn't perfect doesn't mean that its flaws are all that remains.

Oh, by the way - for the first time, I received an absentee ballot sent to my address. Previously, the rules had required me to apply for a ballot every election cycle - yes, I actually have to spend time and money to vote (postage for requesting ballot, postage returning ballot to be exact - trivial), but coming from a former Jim Crow state, that is not exactly a surprise. But this time, without ever having provided any proof of identity, I can vote. I found it quite interesting, seeing how there seems to be a debate about ID standards for citizens living in the U.S. to prevent vote fraud. Personally, it would seem like the chance to pick up a few hundred votes with absentee ballots would be hard for any self-respecting partisan to resist. Or maybe that is the explanation why I received a ballot instead of having to put some effort into voting as in the past, considering the typical demographics of overseas voters? And notice, there is no fraud or illegal manipulation involved at all - just 'voter outreach,' which is always a good thing, right?

Politics is a nasty sport, and anyone thinking otherwise is very naive.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Jack on October 17, 2006 - 9:01pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
The idea that the left side of the US political spectrum is split between moderates and hard core left is a frequent topic of discussion in political circles on both the left and the right. Read Washington Monthly for example, where the topic of winning elections versus ideological purity is a frequent topic.

My point is that George Bush is highly unpopular in the US, and his presidency appears on the edge of collapsing under the weight of incompetence and malice.

Yet, the most vocal opposition is dedicted to building and anti-personality cult which does little more than demonize Bush.

I expect that 70% of Americans want to dump Bush, but 80% think that the core anti-Bush crowd is an obsessive fringe group. So "far left" in political spectrum terms may not be the right waty to categorize this "movement", extreme Bushophobes might.  

The fact that the Bushophobes will set upon anyone who disagrees with them like a school of ravenous piranas without even realizing that they agree on more than they disagree on benefits Bush more than anyone else.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.