The whole world? Gee, I hate to break this to you, but the jews are just people like you and me, they don't really control anything, they don't have the capacity to destroy the world, and female jews don't lay jew eggs unlike what
Borat may have told you.
That's not what I meant. I meant they have nukes, and may be willing to use them if it looks like they are losing a conventional war.
It's not like this is some wacky idea. During the Yom Kippur War, Israel gave some consideration to the "last resort."
And no, it's not "because they are Jews." I think any country in their situation would be tempted. Or rather, that some of the more extreme types within any society would be.
Who is "bringing down the whole world" in your scenario Leanan ??
Israel, if they were to use a nuclear weapon as a "last resort" (even though they have had that weapon for decades and have not used it before...)... or the Radical Islamic Army stationed at their borders?
Who is the aggressor? Were the Jews in Germany were the cause of "bringing down the world" in WWII.
Golda Mier loaded nuclear weapons on F-4 Phantoms "on the runway" before a single Arab tank crossed Isreali pre-1966 borders (i.e. their internationally recognized borders).
From the one woman show "Golda" which I assume is correct.
The world was not brought down in WWII. I was being a bit flip, but there are some scientists who believe that modern nuclear weapons might have undesirable side effects, like destroying our atmosphere. In any case, the radiation would fall all over the world, while the damage from WWII was pretty much limited to where the fighting was. (One reason why it worked out so well for us. Aside from Pearl Harbor, we escaped the kind of destruction Europe suffered.)
Who is right and who is wrong doesn't matter. Who pulls the trigger on the nukes does.
Who WAS right or wrong may not matter after-the-fact... but we are still "before the fact" and there might still be time to prevent such a situation.
But how to do that when you start by saying The Country being Threatened is to blame?
If the Radical Islamic Army next threatens France, Germany etc - do you blame France, Germany, etc for (I think they look, smell, taste, etc and even worship the same godz... harder to abandon maybe)?
Islam is not a serious threat to France, Germany, etc. There may be occasional terrorist attacks, but they are not an existential threat.
It is an existential threat to Israel, though, which is why they were tempted to use "the last resort."
As for prevention...unless we somehow get Israel to follow Ahmadinejad's advice and move to Europe, I don't see anything we can do about it. They are vastly outnumbered, in the midst of a sea of people who hate them...and who are reproducing a lot faster than they are. Oil is allowing them to maintain military superiority. It's a temporary situation.
The time to do something was back in the '60s, when Israel was becoming a nuclear nation.
Islam is not a serious threat to France, Germany, etc.
We are not talking about Islam.
We are talking about Whether or Not the Radical Islamic Army assembled by Iran is a threat. How serious a threat is another question, a threat to whom at PRESENT and in the not-too-distant future are still other questions.
How many countries did The Nazi's take before the rest of the world woke up?
I don't think anyone should take "Ahmadinejad's advice " and I don't think stopping Israel from becoming a nuclear nation would have been a solution.
Actually, if I had a time machine, I'd go back and prevent Israel from ever being created.
Three of the hottest hot spots in the world today are due to England's hasty dismantling of their empire: Israel-Palestine, Pakistan-India-Kashmir...and Iraq.
But leanan, you would have to use your time machine to also go back and heal the rifts between shiites and sunni and islam and christianity and kurds and turks and arabs and persians and ... and...
Israel is just the starting point for the Radical Islamic Army.
What we would like and what is are two different things.
eWe have to deal with what is. Israel exists and is the First Target for the Radical Islamic Army of Iranistan.
But leanan, you would have to use your time machine to also go back and heal the rifts between shiites and sunni and islam and christianity and kurds and turks and arabs and persians and ... and...
Nah. Let 'em fight. They don't have nukes.
Israel is just the starting point for the Radical Islamic Army.
They wouldn't give a rat's rear about us if we weren't meddling in their countries. And the reason we're meddling is oil.
We have to deal with what is.
Which was actually my point. I don't see anything we can really do about the mess we've made now.
But Israel is not sustainable. That is painfully obvious.
If I had a time machine I would go back and kill the false profet Muhammed.
Besides being a false profet, he was also a bandit, a murderer, and a pederast.
Small wonder Hitler admired his self-made religion.
I agree. It was a bad idea, probably implemented because Europe and the US didn't want to take in the holocaust refugees. It was like the Europeans planting colonies in North America, only they neglected to kill off 90% of the native inhabitants as they did here.
Unfamiliar disease killed off the great majority of the indigenous population in the Americas. The Russians and others who have invaded Palestine live among semites, with overlapping ancestry.
England always had a divide and rule policy for governing. Find a minority populace/tribe and give it overwhelming power over its much bigger rival (Sri Lanka, Ireland etc) or better still, promise the same land to two different people (Jews and Palestinians). It made running the Empire much easier, with the dominate tribe hating the minor one rather than the English. Of course once we pulled out, trouble exploded, but that wasn't our problem anymore...
Leanan says:
"I'd go back and prevent Israel from ever being created."
Using the same arguements and looking at what how our country has been a major player in what we now face, it seems that the time machine might have been better used to prevent the USA from ever being created.
Is a bit of bias showing in your remarks? They predate the US by many hundreds of years and actually owned the land they now have a small piece of. They simply ask to live in peace and yet you would prevent them from assuming that land?
I think you are way off base here. Way way off.
Again,,they simply ask to be left alone. They did not start any of the agressive wars against them. They merely attempted to survive.
Using the same arguements and looking at what how our country has been a major player in what we now face, it seems that the time machine might have been better used to prevent the USA from ever being created.
I'm sure a lot of people think that. And maybe they are right.
But I have a feeling it wouldn't make much of a difference. If the U.S. didn't arise here, another, very similar country would have.
Let' see. Somebody writes some fiction which states that some god gave some land [supposedly Israel] to some group [supposedly the Jews, whatever that means], and now the world is supposed to kowtow to the current group calling themselves Jews claiming Israel. Please!
First, Leanan was addressing a completely different problem with his time-travel quip.
"They predate the US by many hundreds of years and actually owned the land they now have a small piece of. They simply ask to live in peace and yet you would prevent them from assuming that land?"
Wow! You have little, or a very biased, understanding of the history of the region including and surrounding Israel (also called "occupied Palestine" by some). I can't think of a single conflict where it can't be argued that Israel had a hand in the conflict. Sometimes the hand was small, most of the time it was astonishingly huge. The Wikipedia page on the History of Israel bounces back and forth a bit in its bias, but isn't a bad place to start cultivating an understanding.
I agree that the vast majority of Israeli citizens just want to live in peace. However, their government is definitely not acting in a way that will bring that peace. And the Israeli citizenry seems to grudgingly accept that their government's actions are justified. The American occupation of Iraq has some of the same themes.
Frankly, I agree with Leanan that Israel is between a rock and hard place and will probably get squeezed out of existence eventually. Things will get much worse in the region before they get better. I would much rather see an end to the hostilities and everybody in the region live in a symbiotic way, but I'm far from hopeful.
There is NO radical islamic army in Iran you twit. There is a radical Christian army in the USA controlled by proven deviants shown to be more than willing to kill hundreds of thousands.
Iran is stil surrounded by big powers all fronts. Threat of a radical islamic army is a myth. Islamic societies are still poor and controlled by western slaves; they are of little threat to anyone. Occasional terrorist threats are nothing more than a nuisance. Israel, on the other hand is a miltary garrison state, a nuclear mini super power backed by the greatest miltary power on the face of the earth unconditonlly, stronger than all muslim arimes combined.
Well, actually, the country that was threatened and has been occupied by an enemy is Palestine. Just because the USA and GB decided that Israel should exist does not justify its continuing existence. If the Zionists weren't so belligerent and insistent on using old fictions to justify their attitude, negotiations might solve the problem by allowing the Jewish poputo some extent lation to move elsewhere. The peoples of Western Europe, and North America, were responsible for the Holocaust, not the Palestinians.
It's full of primary source material and direct quotes. One of the more prescient quotes is by British Member of Parliament, Lord Sydenham in 1922:
"... the harm done by dumping down an alien population upon an Arab country - Arab all around in the hinterland - may never be remedied ... what we have done is, by concessions, not to the Jewish people but to a Zionist extreme section, to start a running sore in the East, and no one can tell how far that sore will extend."
You are right. And, on the day it ended, the world inventory of nukes was 0; we were out. And the 3 which had been exploded were pretty small....
From a high of 65,000 active weapons in 1985, there were about 20,000 active nuclear weapons in the world in 2002. Many of the "decommissioned" weapons were simply stored or partially dismantled, not destroyed.[1]
The question is whether a nuclear blast creates, around the world, strategic maps with a whole lot of extra moving dots and parabolas on them. A nuclear attack is a genocide, but a nuclear war may still be a trigger for a World War - hence Einstein's "I do not know with what weapons WW3 will be fought - but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Scenario:
Israel nukes southern Lebanon
A head of the Pakistani intelligence service decides to sell nukes to Syria as revenge (seeing how Syria's got to deal with the fallout)
Syria hits Jerusalem
Israel reflexively nukes every target it has in the Middle East, making the Qa'ba as radioactive as a reactor core.
Pakistan hits back at Israel
India's drawn in with justification to attack Pakistan
All without three of the most belligerent entities - Al Qaeda, North Korea, or the United States - doing a thing.
you are quite correct in worrying about Israel taking down the rest of the world if she falls. Israel lobbing nukes around in her death would most likely cause other country's with nukes fire them too.
When you attend a funeral,
It is sad to think that sooner or'l
Later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic,
Not to mention other adjec-
Tives, to think of all the weeping they will do.
(But don't you worry.)
No more ashes, no more sackcloth,
And an arm band made of black cloth
Will some day nevermore adorn a sleeve.
For if the bomb that drops on you
Gets your friends and neighbors too,
There'll be nobody left behind to grieve.
And we will all go together when we go.
What a comforting fact that is to know.
Universal bereavement,
An inspiring achievement,
Yes, we will all go together when we go.
We will all go together when we go.
All suffused with an incandescent glow.
No one will have the endurance
To collect on his insurance,
Lloyd's of London will be loaded when they go.
Oh we will all fry together when we fry.
We'll be French fried potatoes by and by.
There will be no more misery
When the world is our rotisserie,
Yes, we will all fry together when we fry.
Down by the old maelstrom,
There'll be a storm before the calm.
And we will all bake together when we bake.
There'll be nobody present at the wake.
With complete participation
In that grand incineration,
Nearly three billion hunks of well-done steak.
Oh we will all char together when we char.
And let there be no moaning of the bar.
Just sing out a Te Deum
When you see that I.C.B.M.,
And the party will be come-as-you-are.
Oh, we will all burn together when we burn.
There'll be no need to stand and wait your turn.
When it's time for the fallout
And Saint Peter calls us all out,
We'll just drop our agendas and adjourn.
You will all go directly to your respective Valhallas.
Go directly, do not pass Go, do not collect two hundred dollahs.
And we will all go together when we go.
Every Hottentot and every Eskimo.
When the air becomes uranious,
We will all go simultaneous.
Yes, we all will go together
When we all go together,
Yes we all will go together when we go.
Of course, now it would be more like "nearly 7 billion hunks of well-done steak."
"but there are some scientists who believe that modern nuclear weapons might have undesirable side effects, like destroying our atmosphere"
Then those scientists are idiots. The U.S. alone did at least 331 atmospheric tests. There were probably twice that many world wide last century. A few atomic bombs set off by terrorists, iran, israel, etc., will have zero long term impact outside of the detonation zone.
The only way nuclear weapons can pose a global threat would be if the US and Russia decide to shoot their entire arsenals at each other. I put the chance of that happening at about the same odds as finding out that the abiotic oil theory is correct.
"Were the Jews in Germany were the cause of "bringing down the world" in WWII."
Here is a typical example of distortion in order to misinform. There is nothing about Israel which likens the situation of its Jewish population to that of the "Jews in Germany". There are many similiarities between the lot of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto and elsewhere and the Muslim and Christian Palestineans in Ghaza and the West Bank.
Years ago I met an old German, whose son had converted to Judaism in the early 1960's after finally learning the true horror of the Nazi era and whose shame and anger turned him against the Catholicism of his father. (the son became a spy for Israel, was captured filming in Egypt, sentenced to death, but after a year in Egyptian prison was released due to the intervention of the German government.)
The father tried to defend himself by saying that he knew nothing of the systematic, state organized murder of Jews (and others). I think he could make a case for his ignorance and for that of the majority of Germans because of the absolute control of public information which charact
And with peak oil looming, I see that as inevitable.
The only question is whether Israel will take down the world when she falls.
I put it it about 50-50...
Borat may have told you.
It's not like this is some wacky idea. During the Yom Kippur War, Israel gave some consideration to the "last resort."
And no, it's not "because they are Jews." I think any country in their situation would be tempted. Or rather, that some of the more extreme types within any society would be.
Israel, if they were to use a nuclear weapon as a "last resort" (even though they have had that weapon for decades and have not used it before...)... or the Radical Islamic Army stationed at their borders?
Who is the aggressor? Were the Jews in Germany were the cause of "bringing down the world" in WWII.
From the one woman show "Golda" which I assume is correct.
Alan
Who is right and who is wrong doesn't matter. Who pulls the trigger on the nukes does.
But how to do that when you start by saying The Country being Threatened is to blame?
If the Radical Islamic Army next threatens France, Germany etc - do you blame France, Germany, etc for (I think they look, smell, taste, etc and even worship the same godz... harder to abandon maybe)?
Islam is not a serious threat to France, Germany, etc. There may be occasional terrorist attacks, but they are not an existential threat.
It is an existential threat to Israel, though, which is why they were tempted to use "the last resort."
As for prevention...unless we somehow get Israel to follow Ahmadinejad's advice and move to Europe, I don't see anything we can do about it. They are vastly outnumbered, in the midst of a sea of people who hate them...and who are reproducing a lot faster than they are. Oil is allowing them to maintain military superiority. It's a temporary situation.
The time to do something was back in the '60s, when Israel was becoming a nuclear nation.
We are not talking about Islam.
We are talking about Whether or Not the Radical Islamic Army assembled by Iran is a threat. How serious a threat is another question, a threat to whom at PRESENT and in the not-too-distant future are still other questions.
How many countries did The Nazi's take before the rest of the world woke up?
I don't think anyone should take "Ahmadinejad's advice " and I don't think stopping Israel from becoming a nuclear nation would have been a solution.
Three of the hottest hot spots in the world today are due to England's hasty dismantling of their empire: Israel-Palestine, Pakistan-India-Kashmir...and Iraq.
Israel is just the starting point for the Radical Islamic Army.
What we would like and what is are two different things.
eWe have to deal with what is. Israel exists and is the First Target for the Radical Islamic Army of Iranistan.
Okay, so Israel will be Voted Off The Island first...
I think "We" meddled in their region because "they" have The Oil and that is the only reason "we" pretend to give a rat's hinder for "them."
The Tribes are forming... "The Needy" team is thinking of who they will expell first... meanwhile...
(I think "painfully obvious" will become a common phrase for all of us soon enough.)
Besides being a false profet, he was also a bandit, a murderer, and a pederast.
Small wonder Hitler admired his self-made religion.
Maybe send terminator back to take out Drake...
If you really wanted to put a stop to this you would have to take your time machine back 100K+ years and knock off "eve" and maybe "adam" too...
"Unfamiliar disease killed off the great majority of the indigenous population in the Americas."
Sending in Smallpox on clothing to the villages kinda helped things along too.
"I'd go back and prevent Israel from ever being created."
Using the same arguements and looking at what how our country has been a major player in what we now face, it seems that the time machine might have been better used to prevent the USA from ever being created.
Is a bit of bias showing in your remarks? They predate the US by many hundreds of years and actually owned the land they now have a small piece of. They simply ask to live in peace and yet you would prevent them from assuming that land?
I think you are way off base here. Way way off.
Again,,they simply ask to be left alone. They did not start any of the agressive wars against them. They merely attempted to survive.
This is bullshit.
I'm sure a lot of people think that. And maybe they are right.
But I have a feeling it wouldn't make much of a difference. If the U.S. didn't arise here, another, very similar country would have.
"They predate the US by many hundreds of years and actually owned the land they now have a small piece of. They simply ask to live in peace and yet you would prevent them from assuming that land?"
Wow! You have little, or a very biased, understanding of the history of the region including and surrounding Israel (also called "occupied Palestine" by some). I can't think of a single conflict where it can't be argued that Israel had a hand in the conflict. Sometimes the hand was small, most of the time it was astonishingly huge. The Wikipedia page on the History of Israel bounces back and forth a bit in its bias, but isn't a bad place to start cultivating an understanding.
I agree that the vast majority of Israeli citizens just want to live in peace. However, their government is definitely not acting in a way that will bring that peace. And the Israeli citizenry seems to grudgingly accept that their government's actions are justified. The American occupation of Iraq has some of the same themes.
Frankly, I agree with Leanan that Israel is between a rock and hard place and will probably get squeezed out of existence eventually. Things will get much worse in the region before they get better. I would much rather see an end to the hostilities and everybody in the region live in a symbiotic way, but I'm far from hopeful.
The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem
It's full of primary source material and direct quotes. One of the more prescient quotes is by British Member of Parliament, Lord Sydenham in 1922:
You are right. And, on the day it ended, the world inventory of nukes was 0; we were out. And the 3 which had been exploded were pretty small....
From a high of 65,000 active weapons in 1985, there were about 20,000 active nuclear weapons in the world in 2002. Many of the "decommissioned" weapons were simply stored or partially dismantled, not destroyed.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons
An all out war would be TEOTWAWKI
Ben Dover@KissRat'sAssGoodbye.com
How about four?
http://www.cccoe.k12.ca.us/pc/nuclear.htm
Port of Chicago.
Scenario:
Israel nukes southern Lebanon
A head of the Pakistani intelligence service decides to sell nukes to Syria as revenge (seeing how Syria's got to deal with the fallout)
Syria hits Jerusalem
Israel reflexively nukes every target it has in the Middle East, making the Qa'ba as radioactive as a reactor core.
Pakistan hits back at Israel
India's drawn in with justification to attack Pakistan
All without three of the most belligerent entities - Al Qaeda, North Korea, or the United States - doing a thing.
Do it yourself version. The dude nailed it in'02
We Will All Go Together When We Go
When you attend a funeral,
It is sad to think that sooner or'l
Later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic,
Not to mention other adjec-
Tives, to think of all the weeping they will do.
(But don't you worry.)
No more ashes, no more sackcloth,
And an arm band made of black cloth
Will some day nevermore adorn a sleeve.
For if the bomb that drops on you
Gets your friends and neighbors too,
There'll be nobody left behind to grieve.
And we will all go together when we go.
What a comforting fact that is to know.
Universal bereavement,
An inspiring achievement,
Yes, we will all go together when we go.
We will all go together when we go.
All suffused with an incandescent glow.
No one will have the endurance
To collect on his insurance,
Lloyd's of London will be loaded when they go.
Oh we will all fry together when we fry.
We'll be French fried potatoes by and by.
There will be no more misery
When the world is our rotisserie,
Yes, we will all fry together when we fry.
Down by the old maelstrom,
There'll be a storm before the calm.
And we will all bake together when we bake.
There'll be nobody present at the wake.
With complete participation
In that grand incineration,
Nearly three billion hunks of well-done steak.
Oh we will all char together when we char.
And let there be no moaning of the bar.
Just sing out a Te Deum
When you see that I.C.B.M.,
And the party will be come-as-you-are.
Oh, we will all burn together when we burn.
There'll be no need to stand and wait your turn.
When it's time for the fallout
And Saint Peter calls us all out,
We'll just drop our agendas and adjourn.
You will all go directly to your respective Valhallas.
Go directly, do not pass Go, do not collect two hundred dollahs.
And we will all go together when we go.
Every Hottentot and every Eskimo.
When the air becomes uranious,
We will all go simultaneous.
Yes, we all will go together
When we all go together,
Yes we all will go together when we go.
Of course, now it would be more like "nearly 7 billion hunks of well-done steak."
Then those scientists are idiots. The U.S. alone did at least 331 atmospheric tests. There were probably twice that many world wide last century. A few atomic bombs set off by terrorists, iran, israel, etc., will have zero long term impact outside of the detonation zone.
The only way nuclear weapons can pose a global threat would be if the US and Russia decide to shoot their entire arsenals at each other. I put the chance of that happening at about the same odds as finding out that the abiotic oil theory is correct.
Here is a typical example of distortion in order to misinform. There is nothing about Israel which likens the situation of its Jewish population to that of the "Jews in Germany". There are many similiarities between the lot of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto and elsewhere and the Muslim and Christian Palestineans in Ghaza and the West Bank.
Years ago I met an old German, whose son had converted to Judaism in the early 1960's after finally learning the true horror of the Nazi era and whose shame and anger turned him against the Catholicism of his father. (the son became a spy for Israel, was captured filming in Egypt, sentenced to death, but after a year in Egyptian prison was released due to the intervention of the German government.)
The father tried to defend himself by saying that he knew nothing of the systematic, state organized murder of Jews (and others). I think he could make a case for his ignorance and for that of the majority of Germans because of the absolute control of public information which charact