267 comments on DrumBeat: January 16, 2007
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
267 comments on DrumBeat: January 16, 2007
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Peak Gold, Easier to Model than Peak Oil? - Part I
- Carbon Capture and Storage
- Oilwatch Monthly November 2009
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- International Energy Agency calls 'Peak' on OECD Oil Demand
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
- The Bullroarer - Friday 20th November 2009
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- Early Warning
- The Energy Blog
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so.”
—Mark Twain
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
Hello Jokuhl,
http://www.arcosanti.org/project/main.html
Arcosanti is just north of Phx, about an hours drive, towns close by are Cordes Junction, Cottonwood, Camp Verde. Not north of Flagstaff at all.
Yep, I have toured Arcosanti years ago, but not involved in any way with it. I just don't think they have enough water and high quality topsoil to make a go of it. The surrounding boomtowns and the Asphalt Wonderland are sucking the small river and acquifers dry, and GW is predicted to make this even worse over time. My guess is that the inhabitants will never reach the energy efficiency levels of the Anasazi or other ancient native desert-dwellers before they abandon Arcosanti. The summer desert is absolutely unforgiving if you don't have water and/or shade; you are simply toast.
Az has drastic elevation changes with corresponding climate zones: from above-the-treeline tundra, to near rain forest, to scorching sand dunes. If the population could be radically reduced-- IMO, the best strategy would be a migrating tribe that moved with the seasons and additionally short-term moderated temperature/weather changes by altitudinal variation.
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Hi Bob;
Thanks for the thoughts.
My main reason for watching them is not necessarily the success at that particular, and fairly extreme location, but to see what tools they have been able to use or reinvent that gives an advantage to any community trying to survive in landscape that was once (Artificially) abundant, and becomes increasingly marginal, esp WRT water supplies, roadway conditions, piped-in power requirements.
My own optimism, to such an extent as I can maintain it, lies in our ability to adapt and devise new tools to handle changing conditions, and our ability to codify and share these discoveries. With the sometimes underappreciated abilities of the internet, we can still duplicate and spread a good (or bad) idea to all corners of the world, and not have to wait for the Pony Express and Literacy to get an idea or a blueprint broadly disseminated.
Without the help (or interference) of massive energy inputs, the solutions will have to begin varying from locale to locale. I suppose there will continue to be forms of migration that follows the fruiting fields, dodges the hurricanes and sleet, but at the moment, what we have is mostly settlements, and we have a number of advantages we've learned to glean from planting deeper roots, such as shared infrastructure (Geothermal installations, Water Purification , Greenhouses) that benefit multiple families/clans.. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of these 'Beehive' Developments investing in a central WindTurbine, for example. This morning, I sketched up a recurring notion of mine, where you get some temporary storage with raised weights to smooth out the variability of wind generation. Of course, a community might also invest in water storage, which lends itself to using the water in High and Low tanks to achieve this end, too.
( Variation on the weights system might be a Hilly Community that builds a Funicular (Hillside) Trainway, and uses parallel counterweight tracks (In hillside trenches, with ample 'freefall security') to both lift the car system, and to store energy from Direct-winched Wind Turbines atop the hill ) The build would be expensive, but fairly simple in modern engineering terms. Lifting could come from other inputs.. Hydropower, PV to Elec Motor, etc) Lots of Bikespace built into the Funicular Train!
'Do Yeast ask themselves a corresponding question?'
Bob
(By the way, your tagline has become my default summary of the conversation here. So if I play with it a little, it is not to offend, but because it has given me food for thought. PPS, It's maddening,too.)
I've not been to Arcosanti, but looked at visiting and am familiar with tourism-driven economies, and I don't consider Arcosanti any more sustainable than the "Polynesian Culture Center" (a Polynesian theme park and Mormon recruiting tool on the Windward side of the island of Oahu). In fact, I'd say less so, since the "PCC" is surrounded by much more hospitable land. In either case, sustainability would only come after 90% of the people in the area died. In both case, they're kept going by visitors with bulging pockets, who leave with smiles and much thinner pockets. The $ obtained is used to buy goods from outside, many, generally thousands, of miles away. This is how SPAM gets to Hawaii and how strawberries get to Northern Arizona towns in January.