You could be right there Hothgar. NASA says that most of the GW to date has been absorbed by the oceans. The atmosphere is in intimate thermal contact with the water and the oceans have huge thermal inertia. So expect a slow rise of air temperature.

The big risk as far as I can comprehend are changes to the ocean currents leading to climate change effecting food production. I don't think rising sea levels matter a hill of beans. Anybody who can't dodge a rising tide is already dead.

Also, I have yet to read anyone explain to 'the people' how coral islands got to be 3 feet above sea level in the first place. It's not some lucky coincedence! So long as the sea level rise is less that coral growth then the islands will rise along with the oceans. Essentially coral grows to near the low tide mark. Storms break up the coral into sand which is dumped on the island. Coral then regrows.

GW is received truth now. Try getting a science job as a GW sceptic. Ask Galileo what happens to heretics.

The real PO issue here is that the IPCC has made the most optimistic assumptions about the available of oil and gas. It's in the nature of any prediction that you have to keep all other variables fixed. The PO community suffers the from same problem.

Alan: "Anybody who can't dodge a rising tide is already dead."

We really gotta move this to Drumbeat and preserve the integrity of HO's thread. Having said that, thanx 'cuz i had to laff when i read your post. My floating docks in West Vancouver rose and fell thru 16 feet vertical of tide during 24 hours at the bi-monthly peaks. That's over five metres. 500cm. 5000 millimetres in one day. And each year our sea level rose 3mm.

Over the last 10,000 years, the greatest annual sea level surge was 70mm. The fringe has no idea of this subject's context...

I will agree with the Drumbeat part, but in terms of widening sources, it would be good to go beyond the North American debates.

For example, neither the Dutch nor the Northern Germans care much about your experience in Vancouver - but then, as we all know, context is everything.

Of course, some people find the Dutch easy to dismiss - after all, people who reclaim land from the sea obviously have no good idea of what the facts are. As you noted, the 'fringe has no idea of this subject's context.' And I guess we can throw in those people living in Venice, or London - talked to anybody living near the Thames recently? I guess they have just been throwing their money away with those dam systems.

Some good links for other people interested in an overview -
http://www.lenntech.com/flood.htm
or
http://www.thamesweb.com/topic.php?topic_name=Flood%20Defence (British government site)

For those looking at such things in context, the following excerpt might be useful -
'The Thames Estuary is an area where the risk of flooding is particularly high. The Thames region is increasingly at risk from flooding due to higher mean sea levels, increased rainfall and tide ranges, and a greater number and intensity of storm events. The Thames must also contend with the gradual 'sinking' of the southeastern tip of the British Isles (a process occurring as southern England returns to its original level, prior to being lifted by the weight of ice sheets pushing down on northern Britain during the last Ice Age).'

Strangely (without referencing cause), of the 5 main causes for increased flood risk concerning the Thames, three are directly tied to climate change as experienced both recently and over thousands of years. Especially the 'glacier tilt' is pretty surprising - and I bet that is also measured in that utterly trivial mm amount too, maybe even at an absolutely tiny mm per century rate.

Intriguingly, it would be interesting to see the rate of such tilting, and then add that to projections concerning glacier melt in places like Greenland or Antartica, to see whether along with the recently discovered water between ground and glacier, it would have a noticeable impact on how fast the glaciers would move towards sea level.

See, once you start actually looking at the world around you, all sorts of 'unimaginable' things happen. Like methane bubbling in the sea, as discovered recently - and to think, in all the textbooks we used in school, no one ever mentioned such things. Must mean they don't exist, I'm sure - though the article at http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2006GL027977.shtml comes from the American Geophysical Union - 'established in 1919 by the National Research Council and for more than 50 years operated as an unincorporated affiliate of the National Academy of Sciences.' Sounds like more of those alarmists - 'consisting (as of 2006) of over 49,000 members from over 140 countries. AGU's activities are focused on the organization and dissemination of scientific information in the interdisciplinary and international field of geophysics. The geophysical sciences involve four fundamental areas: atmospheric and ocean sciences; solid-Earth sciences; hydrologic sciences; and space sciences.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Geophysical_Union

Sounds like a bunch of loonies to me, you know, the sorts of loonies that actually wrote that article, having earned something like doctorates or gathered experience over years, and work for such extreme environmental organizations as Natural Resources Canada, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and the U.S. Geological Survey.

And a final quote from the British site -
'The area at risk from flooding across the Thames is home to over a million residents and workers, 500,000 properties, 38 Underground and DLR stations, and City Airport, as well as many areas recognised for their ecological importance. An estimated 75% of the property value at risk from tidal floods in England and Wales lies within the Thames tidal flood plain. A large-scale flood event in this area would have disastrous effects, causing millions of pounds worth of damage to businesses, homes and infrastructure, and potentially causing the loss of life for thousands of London's residents.' I guess the British should stop being ninnies, and follow the well tested American methods of dealing with potential problems - ignore them until they go away, for example.

Expat, u are no doubt very passionate about this issue; and are not averse to research, but let me offer u et al some advice when trying to make your point in the future: ask yourself - how much of my complaint or concern would have happened anyway w/o the GHG anomaly?

All the forcings that are mentioned were around in the early 20th Century. I have spoken several times about what climatogists call "unrealized or committed warming".

The temp is going up 0.1C/decade and the water is going up 2cm/decade regardless of recent GHG; due to meltwater events hundreds of years ago. Ocean cirulation models show us that polar melt events are in the system a very long time and eventually terminate as temp rise at the surface and the resultant water expansion.

In your case, London is sinking. Unfortunate. But it's due to events ten millenium ago. And 69% of the sea level rise has nothing to do with the events of the last 30 years.

I will admit that the GHG anomaly is going to accelerate your and other problems. And the forecasts could get worse w/o mitigation. But let's keep it in perspective or your efforts will be deemed as petty screaming and handwaving. Your audience is not stupid and i pass this on from a vantage of four decades association in that sector. Good luck.

Actually, I live in Germany, very comfortably above sea level (though I did grow up near enough the Tidal Basin in Washington DC), but the point remains valid - climate change is unavoidable, regardless of cause, and it is how we deal with it that remains the essential focus in places like London, Hamburg, Venice, Miami, New York City, and most other places on a coast - which tends to cover a good slice of humanity, regardless of how you look at it.

I remain very agnostic on causes - though the amount of CO2 we have injected into the atmosphere on a planetary scale is hopefully beyond any meaningful debate, even if its effects are still unclear in the sense that this is something beyond current experience and research has only begun to understand the scope of complexity, and not understand the complexity itself (yes, I have talked about the Maunder minimum and the Little Ice Age here too, and it got quite a reaction then) - but results are important.

Much of the argument about climate change is silly - whether London or the Netherlands, the people living there are dealing with the future, even if their understanding of it is imperfect. To put it a bit differently - I am pretty sure they would rather be 100mm wrong in terms of having built too high than the reverse.

And the hurricanes here (well, the German definition - they fit on the scale in terms of windspeed, but obviously lack true hurricane/typhoon features) which seem to be happening more often do not make the planners in the 1980s look stupid because they were ignorant of the precise mechanisms of climate change, it makes them look like very reasonable people who deserve to be in charge of making such decisions into the future.

To be honest, it is merely human to hold a position in the face of reality - Greenpeace did that here with Brent Spar, refusing to let it be sunk - when in fact, a realistic and beneficial process would have been cleaning it to essentially bare metal, then sinking it to be a fertile habitat, as has been practiced in other areas over decades - but since Greenpeace based its policy on opposing the sinking, there was no way to allow any realistic and cost effective alternatives to be considered, which was pretty moronic.

On the other hand, the obsolete North Sea oil platforms were sort of an out of sight, out of pocket exercise - the oil companies had hoped to sink many of them without any stringent supervision at all, so sometimes, realizing that perfection is impossible may be the best possible course.

What Greenpeace (who in the case of Brent Spar, lied about toxic sludge) was able to tap into was the fact that anyone throwing any trash into the North Sea - no coke cans from your fishing boat - is subject to fines. When you have pretty well trashed an area, you can either write it off, or at least try to stop making things worse - Europeans, for all their smugness and faults, don't honestly believe that there is another North Sea waiting in the wings to be used after the first has been ruined. Europeans seem to have a grasp on the fact that the world is finite, maybe because their age of empire seems to be firmly in their past. And they are very, very worried about how the weather has been for the last period of time, since it is beyond human/historical experience.

But to say nothing will change, or to simply assume that current understanding is adequate, is taking a risk that other people are not willing to accept - the Dutch will be happy if their pessimistic projections are wrong, but it is very unlikely they will have thought the money spent on such protection to have somehow been 'wasted' - like Europeans and vacation time, money is not the only measure that all humans value, even if North Americans seem blind to this.

As a guess, in another 5 or 10 years, sinking oil platforms, after cleaning them, will become a standard practice in the North Sea, and everyone involved will likely have forgotten about the Brent Spar fiasco.

Maybe in 50 years, people then will find these debates silly - but I will bet that those who prepared for less rosy futures are likely to be in better shape than those who did nothing. And currently, the feedback loops are running in the wrong way - sea ice with high albedo being replaced with open water, or methane releases in Artic regions (Antartica next perhaps, from currently unknown sources, much like seabed methane hydrates were unknown before deep water exploration became possible?), or water underneath glaciers accelerating melt - the natural reaction for caution seems abundantly justified, if imperfect. I have been hearing about the need for more research for at least two decades - the loudest have been those people interested in blocking any research which doesn't fit their preconceptions.

NASA seems to have just published some interesting numbers about January temperatures, but maybe after that Bush appointed 'editor' is in place, we can go back to ignoring the world around us, as such distorting information will no longer pass muster - besides, the U.S. has more important things to do than merely try to understand the world it lives in.

Rather then sinking oil and gas platforms I think it is more likely that their infrastructure will be converted to become offshore wind and wave farms. The pipelines connecting them to the shore can be used for storing and compressing air, which will go along a long way to overcoming the intermittency problems of wind and wave energy. The compressed air will drive turbines onshore to generate power at peak and during demand surges.

From the perspective of oil and gas companies this would be a near-perfect solution as it will allow them to defer billions of dollars in decommissioning costs for a decade or two, possibly longer.