<The National Petroleum Council ReportThe Oil DrumCommission to Formulate Traffic Reduction Policy>
<DrumBeat: July 21, 2007DrumBeatDrumBeat: July 23, 2007>

194 comments on DrumBeat: July 22, 2007

Comments can no longer be added to this story.

expat on July 22, 2007 - 8:32am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

'One horsepower equals 750 watts, and anything that could be called a "car" would have to have at least 40 horsepower, although, of course, a golf cart would use less. To produce 40 horsepower, a solar panel would have to be approximately 240 times as large as the one shown in the Star's picture. Eight feet by 375 feet would work.

To operate a 40-horsepower car for one hour, the panel shown would have to charge batteries for 250 hours. Even to operate a golf cart, charging time would be unacceptable. The panel shown could operate the taillights, but certainly not the headlights, of a standard car.'

I thought this was actually pretty understandable - and even if other solar technologies are more efficient in energy 'production', the numbers don't crunch very well. How many cars are there in Arizona? And are the cars more important than AC/heating?

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Petrosaurus on July 22, 2007 - 11:43am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Maybe you should go back to another historical definition of a car, the Citroen 2CV, which had a 425cc 12 Hp engine in its original inCARnation, and moved up to 600cc and 18Hp later. Four passengers, great reliability and durability, frontwheel drive or traction avant as they say, lawnmower simplicity and even a heater of sorts. Cheap, too.

Similar vehicles abound in Japan, although their cramped locales and short statures led to vehicles that are seen as too small but needn't be. We need to get over the two tons of metal syndrome and I don't feel the obligation to be polite about it anymore. Other countries have taxed the overpowered and overweight vehicles to the margins, but the political will isn't apparent here. There is a transportational reality between SUVs and bicycles.

That Citroen could do this in 1949 backs my argument that we are just stupid and greedy. When the beloved 2CV finally ceased production sometime in the 90's as I recall, there were huge riots and protests. Granted, there are some new designs in Europe that get great mileage too and are a lot safer and more comfortable, but my point is that we have to give up on the American definition of a car. It's over.

I ran a 2CV for many years back in the 60's and 70's, a 'camionette' or van version dubbed Tooloose Le Truck, and filled it's five gallon tank for about $2. Less than a penny a mile. Two race motorcycles, tools, and gas fit in the back and two maniacs in the front. You just had to be sure to leave early.

Sure, these things only went 50 mph, but so what. Compared to air travel, all cars are slow, and compared to a horse, 12hp is multiples faster. I'd like to see a national 50 mph limit and a 20 hp limit. We'd kill a lot fewer innocents and cut the carbon way down and still get where we're going with a lot less stress and aggro. Why drive a multi liter multi ton can at 70 mph to end up idling in a traffic jam?

Our current 'arrangement' of the automobile is just plain stupid.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
tstreet on July 22, 2007 - 3:00pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Thanks for pushing the envelope on this. It will never happen but you speak the truth about what should be done. We do live in bizaaro world but do not realize it.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
econguy on July 22, 2007 - 6:19pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The original Volkswagen Beetle had 28hp. It seated four and pretty much did everything a car is supposed to do. The Loremo car has a 20hp engine -- and a lighter body than the Beetle, working out to about the same hp/weight ratio.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
oilmanbob on July 22, 2007 - 6:59pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

econoguy,

yeah...but have you ever tried to fool around in the back seat of one? My back still hurts!

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Donal on July 23, 2007 - 7:58am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Population control :-)

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
ResponsibleAccountable on July 22, 2007 - 8:24pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I love your idea of a horsepower limit... this would be a shock... but anything that needs doing will be a shock... either we have a big shock or a big crash... sadly I'm betting on the latter, but wishing for the former...
--
When no-one around you understands
start your own revolution
and cut out the middle man

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Engineer-Poet on July 22, 2007 - 7:19pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

expat quotes:

To operate a 40-horsepower car for one hour, the panel shown would have to charge batteries for 250 hours. Even to operate a golf cart, charging time would be unacceptable. The panel shown could operate the taillights, but certainly not the headlights, of a standard car.

You may find this understandable, but you don't understand why it's grossly misleading to the point of fraud:

  • The vehicle isn't a 40-horsepower car, it's probably more like 5 HP.
  • Even a 40 HP car doesn't run at full power all the time.  A small car at cruise probably uses 12-20 horsepower on the highway, much less at 45-50 MPH.
  • The proper measure is energy/distance, not peak power.
  • If the NEV ("golf cart") uses 100 watt-hours per mile, 120 watts to its batteries will yield about 1.2 miles of driving for each hour in the sun.

Either the author doesn't understand what he's talking about, or he's lying.  He has just blown any right to be taken as an authority on the subject.

How many cars are there in Arizona? And are the cars more important than AC/heating?

There are lots, and (to give proper credit) the author is correct about the rightly-maligned Arizona alternate fuel vehicle tax credit (which is not unlike the US flex-fuel CAFE credit).  However, if Arizona citizens covered their roofs with solar-thermal concentrators, they could produce all the heat and cooling (via absorption A/C) they could use while charging their electric vehicles.  There is no reason for Arizona to be obtaining most of its energy needs from oil and coal.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
expat on July 23, 2007 - 4:57am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Actually, other people picked up on the 40hp being the minimum lower limit for a car (which is absurd), but the seeming conflation of the golf cart with an automobile was another of his 'mistakes.' The understandable was in relation to the situation the author was trying to sketch - that a PV panel wouldn't be sufficient for 'normal' American transportation needs. Amazingly, a lot of people don't need a PV panel to move their feet to walk 20 minutes to a store, and the number that can physically ride a bike to do the same thing in 5 minutes is easily 90% of those that can walk. But no mention of that fact - though again, in most of Arizona, summer is brutal - and Arizona's citizens are unlikely to change how they live enough to actually make it possible - none of that Spanish life style will be imported into the good old U.S.A., regardless of how well it worked in areas with similar weather and a lot less air conditioning.

Or maybe the American lifestyle is coming to Spain instead -
'For much of Spain's recent history, the siesta made the long days bearable. A routine workday that begins at 9 a.m. and finishes at 8 p.m. can seem somewhat rational if it is broken up by a good nap in the afternoon.

Today, long commutes make a trip home for a nap impractical, at least in the major cities. But if the siesta is becoming a thing of the past, it has left a legacy of idle afternoons that is still very much a part of Spanish life. In a way, the siesta has not so much disappeared as it has morphed into an epic lunch, often a two- or three-hour extravaganza that can last until 5.

Now some Spaniards are beginning to ask if a divided workday, with morning and evening sessions straddling an afternoon of scarce productivity, is compatible with the modern world and Spain's growing integration into Europe. '
http://www.expatriatecafe.com/index.php?option=news&task=viewarticle&sid...

Facts are going to become increasingly difficult to agree on in the future, I think - especially since facts don't lend themselves to marketing.

But changing lifestyles seems no problem - as long as it go with the globalized flow, and not against it.

0
Comments can no longer be added to this story.