If you could apply Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) to the world's 2,000 largest fossil fuel power plants (about 90% of them coal) you would reduce world CO2 emissions by something like 25%.

I am assuming in this:

- that electric power production is c. 40% of world CO2 output

- that coal is about 7/8ths of that (coal is 1/2 US electric power output, and about 80-90% of CO2 output for the US electric power sector; it is c. 90% of Chinese electricity output, c. 80% I think of Indian, I can't remember the Russian fraction (about 20% I think), about 30% of Canadian, about 60% of Australian, 40% of German, 90% of Polish etc.

- that CCS, including the additional energy costs, would reduce total CO2 emission per plant by about 70%

(sorry for all the handwaiving, I haven't done a good model)

This would cost something between $100-200/tonne of carbon abated (might be as high as $300 or $81/tonne CO2).

Now it's likely that in the early stages, costs would be at the upper end, or beyond, what the IPCC estimates. The IGCC (Intermediate Gasification Combined Cycle) technology is relatively expensive and tricky, compared to Ultra-Critical pulverised coal technology.

The MIT coal study also shows that the technology pathway is not entirely clear: it's not certain that IGCC with CCS is better than conventional pulverised coal (PC) with CCS. We need to build the plants and find out.

As you point out, a systematic programme of improving building efficiency (c. 30% of greenhouse gas emissions) could sharply reduce the demand for electricity at the same time. It's entirely within current technology to double current building efficiency on average (new buildings, 80-90% better ie using 10% of the energy they do now; retrofitting buildings up to 50% better).

It's really quite sad, because that says we could reduce world CO2 emissions by 35-40%, simply by doing what we already know how to do, and by fully developing CCS technology. We could do that in 30 years (time to replace all power plants and bring all buildings up to standard).

By contrast, transport is much, much harder. There is a 'quick win' (US passenger vehicles) but after that, abatement costs per tonne of carbon are quite high.

(saving the rainforests is actually cheapest: as little as £10/tonne of carbon. Even cheaper is stuff like insulating your home or changing to CFLs, which have *positive* costs ie they *pay* you to do them)

Having watched the UK drown this summer (having nearly melted 2 summers ago) and watching Greece burn, and noting the continued disbelief in global warming in the US (and the prevalent belief that GW has something to do with Al Gore's political ambitions ie that it is a partisan issue) my conclusion is things really haven't gotten bad enough. Humans need much bigger threats to make them change their ways.

In 20 years time we'll be ready for these solutions. But we'll do everything to drag our heels in the meantime.

This week's Science Magazine (? couldn't find the cite, it might be Nature) has a debate between Sir Nicholas Stern and William Nordhaus. Nordhaus, the doyen of sceptical environmental economists, basically argues we should concentrate on economic growth, and making the future rich. Then they'll be rich enough to do something about global warming. He doesn't think our obligation runs any deeper than that, ie to do what we would normally have done.

The world, and the IPCC, as James Hansen points out in New Scientist this week, may be massively underestimating the risk of accelerated glacial melt.

Let's hope the earth's climate gives us that time to make up our minds to do something.

If you could apply Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) to the world's 2,000 largest fossil fuel power plants (about 90% of them coal) you would reduce world CO2 emissions by something like 25%.........

OK - where do you put the CO2??

It doesnt matter if we capture it. If you burn 1 km3 of coal per year where do you put [x]000km3 of CO2..

answers on a postcard please

...well the oxygen I can live with -we don't want to get rid of that!!

Also, we don't necessarily need to get rid of the carbon from the atmosphere at the source -just remove it from the carbon cycle. That's after all how the carbon got down into Ghawar and the like in the first place.

A problem with any CCS idea is that is uses energy from the very fossil fuels it aims to cut the emmissions from. Therefore the pie either needs to expand ("oops1" after PO) or we get less energy out the end ("oops2" after PO).

In his book "The Millenium Project" Marshal Savage envisages using Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC) to power and overproduce algae blooms that are then encassed and sunk to the sea floor. The OTEC gets it's power from outside the current non-renewable system so it expands the pie, not decreases it.

I really think that unless we can come up with a solution that does not detract from NET energy then once we hit PO the GW thing will just take a back seat as we scramble to merely keep the lights burning...

Nick.

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to make sure Terra Preta was included in this discussion.

I am from the American site and we are talking about the current energy legislation (or lack thereof) and the prospect of a recession resulting from the sub-prime fiasco. If there is a recession and it spills over into the global economy then the chances of GW and PO being addressed are going to be slim.

So, I wanted to bring up Terra Preta because it is cheap carbon capture. Essentially Terra Preta is the practice of making charcoal and working it into the ground as fertilizer. Some of the carbon is released into the atmosphere during the process but the rest is sequestered in an inert form in the soil. Grow a tree, turn it into charcoal, bury it, repeat. I think this is going to be important because it is cheap, low tech, accessible to individuals and small groups, and it pulls the carbon directly out of the atmosphere instead of at the source. These are all going to be important factors should governments and industry fail to act in time.

Additionally, I didn't see any mention of algae photobioreactors using the flue gas from the coal power plant. A decent amount of biodiesel can be generated this way. It doesn't keep the carbon out of the atmosphere, but the carbon gets used twice. Once for electricity and once for liquid fuels.

Cheers,
Tim

The IPCC looked at this if you look at the report.

Roughly speaking this would be 2 bn tpa of carbon or 7.3bn tpa of CO2.

There is enough subterranean storage. Bottom of ocean storage is far fetched, but may eventually be practicable.

Nordhaus, the doyen of sceptical environmental economists, basically argues we should concentrate on economic growth, and making the future rich. Then they'll be rich enough to do something about global warming. He doesn't think our obligation runs any deeper than that, ie to do what we would normally have done.

What a jerk.

Here's what's going to happen---based on what is happening now.

Global economic growth will enable a few people to get even damn richer. At that point, they will be personally better off by buying property in those regions least affected or beneficially affected by global warming.

They'll be strong demand for those so you'll have to be rich.

Large scale socialized (i.e. taxed) schemes to alter global warming for generations in the future will be seen as irrelevant (since by then global warming will be an irreversible train) and fiercely fought by the people who have all the money (since that taxation (of the rich of course, since they have the money) will strongly hurt their ability to ameliorate global warming now for themselves and their families.)

Everybody else will be encouraged to go f@ck themselves.

By the way, that argument of Nordhaus---if you assume continuous exponential growth in prosperity endlessly---appears superficially to be a 'time-free' operator, in that it will give exactly the same answer at any moment in time: "do it later".

E.g.: Well, with enough economic growth I guess we'll be able to cure cancer for (inflation adjusted) 25 cents a head, so why bother working and worrying about it now.

And later: 25 cents? Why bother? In a few years it will be only 1 cent.