68 comments on EROEI Short #2: Lenin & Lohan
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
68 comments on EROEI Short #2: Lenin & Lohan
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Unique Times -- and the Future
- Peak Gold, Easier to Model than Peak Oil? - Part I
- Carbon Capture and Storage
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- The Bullroarer - Friday 27th November 2009
- International Energy Agency calls 'Peak' on OECD Oil Demand
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- Early Warning
- The Energy Blog
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so.”
—Mark Twain
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
You have the do a lot of work to convince me that the cause-effect relationship goes in this direction. IMO it is self-evident it is exactly the opposite - economies that "prosper" create enough surplus of energy and other resources made available for the people to "waste" the way they like.
I'll bring it even further - discretionary spending is one of the main reasons people are motivated to work harder, and to embrace the economic growth idea. If I earn $1000 per month, but I spend $990 on essentials and only $10 for myself I could hardly be satisfied with my life. I will try to find a way to earn more.
You mentioned the market vs command economy. The main difference between the two is that in a command economy (at least in the socialist version), the essentials - food, housing, education, healthcare etc. are either free or dirt cheap. What you earn is basically for non-essential consumption, and here is where the command economy failed. Because of its nature it did not follow and could not provide what people wanted... and the people simply wanted the freedom and conveniences of western lifestyle. The surplus energy was still there but it was routed inefficiently - to the military, to the government beurocracy or to the huge inefficient industrial complex.
The bottom line of all of this is that you are right - the surplus energy is essential on a societal level. With falling surpluses we would simply have to cut back on non-essentials and accept lower living standard... Personally I won't miss SUVs and RVs, but will hate to see things like air travel go.
LevinK, Jeff
The question is who defines frivolous play? Art's a good example-when I'm working on a piece (I sculpt a little), much of the creative process of fiddling with the materiel can only be defined as play-when does it stop being a doodle and become a drawing?
Creativity seems to require quite a bit of freeform noodling around, because the source for creativity is in the unconcious mind. If a person wishes to unleash their creativity it isn't found by sitting down and insisting that the person come up with a creative idea. Thats the surest way to a block that I know. Surely we all recall pedants who decide that something is a waste of time when its in fact a necessary part of the process. Sometimes when i get "stuck" nothing works better than taking a nap, then awakening with an idea.
Bob Ebersole
We are faced with the difficulties of the Hirsch Gap as we transition toward greater efficiency and renewables. Enormous capital investments will be needed for this conversion. We are already seeing serious inflation in commodities like steel, aluminum, and cement vital to this conversion. Banning the use of some commodities for some purposes is neccesary to make the conversion affordable. The needed upgrade in our electric power grid shouldn't have to compete with beverage can manufacturers for aluminum. High speed rail networks and windfarms should not compete with SUV manufacturers for steel. We will need to do without certain products for a while if our complex civilisation is to continue functioning. Our future energy supply is just too important to be left to the amoral free market to decide.