107 comments on EROEI Short #3: Price-Estimated EROEI
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107 comments on EROEI Short #3: Price-Estimated EROEI
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Jeffs piece on EROI (or EROEI as TODers prefer), alludes to an Energy Theory of Value. Essentially we need something to evaluate scarce resources that are currently measured in infinite resources (dollars). This concept has a rich history over many decades dating back to Howard Scott and the Technocrats who stated that “A dollar may be worth –in buying power – so much today and more or less tomorrow, but a unit of heat is the same in 1900, 1929,1933 or 2000”.
An excellent overview of this topic can be downloaded at:
From Technocracy to Net Energy Analysis: Engineers, Economists and Recurring Energy Theories of Value" (pdf warning)
Here is another good piece on Value Theory by Charlie Hall that explains these concepts.
My advisor, Robert Costanza has also offered empirical evidence for an energy theory of value using a parallel method to the one Jeffs suggests in order to explain relationships between GDP and energy. His phd thesis 25 years ago was actually on this precise topic Embodied Energy and Economic Valuation"
A main problem in the assumptions of EROI analysis is it keeps all inputs constant. For example, if a biofuel has a 3:1 EROI then water, land, labor, soil, etc are all assumed to be equivalent ratios in the input. In reality this is far from the case. This assumption doesnt matter as long as ENERGY is the primary limiting input. The problem the planet faces now is that there are potentially MANY limiting inputs, as we attempt to scale energy production to meet growing human demand.
At some point in the not to distant future, we may run into a shortage of a central good that has no ready substitute. Using net energy analysis, or something similar, will give us a better head start to this event, and more holistic plan alternatives. EROI has many problems. Conventional economics has more.
Unfortunately, concepts like the X theory of value - for example Henry George's land theory of value - also have a rich history of deep problems, inasmuch as individual commodities of whatever sort, even patently finite ones like land or oil, pose individual and idiosyncratic problems. Among other things, these X theories neglect substitution. The unavailability of perfect substitution is not the same as the unavailability of any substitution, a point I think some hard-core doomers tend to miss.
And yet, for the purpose at hand, so what? We call the variation in buying power inflation or deflation, and as long as the variation is not so severe as to convert the dollar into pure noise, we can readily apply a 'deflator'. And for evaluating whether ethanol really produces a return, inflation hardly matters unless it reaches Zimbabwe levels, as many of the key issues seem to play out within a single harvest season.
I can't parse this, can you elaborate just a little? For example, even the Dutch have pretty much stopped making more land, so the notion that anyone with a functioning brain cell would be assuming that there is a 3:1 return of land on land is patently incomprehensible. I suppose they might be assuming 3:1 on something to do with land, but what could that something possibly be?
We'll probably need a whole toolbox, not just a wrench or a voltmeter. However, I'm not fully in sync with the hatred of economics often expressed around here. Like all viewpoints it has intrinsic limits, but at least it examines the world more broadly than through the lens of a single commodity. And even economics can tell us, for example, that if substitutes for oil - a central good for aviation at the moment - become highly problematical, business people will simply need to pick up the phone more often, and physically travel less often. Well, duh.
I mean that when a net energy analysis is undertaken, they dont adjust for other inputs. So the movement from a 3:1 to a 5:1 EROI assumes a concomittant increase in non-energy inputs, like land, labor etc from 3:1 to 5:1 as well. A 3:1, 5:1 20:1 EROI all say nothing about labor, time, land, etc. WHich is why even the low EROI numbers on ethanol are too favorable - there is a huge land input needed for biofuels that is not needed for most conventional fossil fuels, or wind.
.
I donthate economics as its part of my doctorate studies. Conventional economics has been a great allocation mechanism on an 'empty' planet. But by definition, the pursuit of 'utility' through growth,and concomittant allocation mechanisms will not work on a planet full of people and high quality resources already spent - some tweaks are needed as a minimum, and a total overhaul might actually be in order.
Ah. In other words, for the purposes at hand, we can only regard an energy analysis (EROEI, net, or other), as useful if it takes scalability into account. And this remains so if I use price as a proxy for energy, which is an additional viewpoint that may shed light on the matter. Or, to put it another way, if someone manages to put together a magical 'zero point energy' device that extracts one nanowatt-hour per year from the volume of the Earth, we can, for our purposes, disregard it absolutely and utterly. Yup, I'm OK with that.
So we add scalability analysis as a criterion or requirement to examine when refereeing energy-source analysis.
Precisely
Perhaps a start would be to examine the possibility that resource constraints (i.e. a non-'empty' planet) introduce significant correlations between some variables currently treated as uncorrelated in statistical and/or econometric models... ?
YES !!!!!!!
And correlations lead to positive feedback loops.
Thats the problem once you start looking at a finite system driven by a decreasing critical resource you get correlation and thence positive feedback.
Think of the microphone feedback case right before they go into exponential feedback their is a correlation event where the inputs and outputs become shared then boom you go positive feedback. So increasing amounts of correlation implies positive feedback. So if your concerned about correlation your really talking about positive feedback loops forming.
This is why strained complex systems tend to crash too many routes exist for positive feedback as the system becomes highly correlated.
Yes. I totally agree with this but I don't know how to do it. I think the classic example are economists who think the long term price for oil will tend to around $40 per barrel because that was the cost of CTL produced Oil when Oil cost $20 per barrel.
As memmel says above, there are almost certainly feedback effects that cause the general price of all inputs to rise so that $40 CTL Oil in a world where Oil from from the ground costs $20 is unrealistic where Oil from the ground costs $100.
The escalating costs of the Oil Sands projects are another.
Another is here in Australia where we are benefiting from a mining boom which is inducing massive investment in projects all over the place. However the costs of the these projects keep rising because they're driven by the rising costs of the commodities that is inducing the investment in the first place... etc.
How does one go about scaling input costs to projects that will increase supply to meet the demand for the commodities?
I dunno. Seems like a good Ph.D. project to me.
The Henry George link is broken. I was surprised to learn that georgism (which is apparently not so much the idea that land is the fundamental unit of value, as the idea that land ownership, and possibly only land ownership, should be taxed) is apparently quite appreciated by theorists. A bunch of liberal and quite respected economists even sent a public letter to Gorbachev arguing that he should keep land government-owned, in order to implement this idea!
I can't see that land or energy have even poor substitutes. Whatever you want to do, you need a place to do it, right? And a substitute for energy does not make physical sense.
Nate, thanks for posting that link to the Berndt's summary paper about the Technocrats. I studied Georgescue-Roegen, Howard Odum, Bruce Hannon, Herman Daly, Robert Costanza and others in the 1970's and early 1980's, but was not aware that such ideas had been discussed much earlier. It was quite an eye opener to learn that Hubbert was so active before WW II. I guess I'm a Technocrat in the sense that I think the U.S. will need to ration transportation fuel, once Peak Oil kicks in. I thought I had some profound "new" idea, but it's just another of my re-inventions of the wheel, as we engineers say (note oblique reference to Hermann Hesse's "Beneath the Wheel"). Looks like I need to do more reading...
E. Swanson
Thanks - Ive had many similar 'light bulbs' go off in my head in the last few years - thinking Ive stumbled on some new important synthesis, I google it and many of the ideas are 30 years old. And alot of them lead back to Herman Daly or Howard Odum.
The good news is, that if independent thinking minds come to these conclusions on their own (without being taught), it lends robustness to the concepts.
An energy theory of value is true - its just how to make it practical is the problem - as Schlesinger said - we have two modes towards energy - complacency and panic