I wish we could get to a place where we could admit the truth that this kind of economic analysis has no relevance to an oligopolistic market in which a few players control supply and the availability of supply to meet demand is NOT a free market clearing process. My greatest fear is that Professor Goose may be teaching this nonsense to our college kids.

There are many ways of looking at the world. This is one of them.

I teach my students to learn the many sides of arguments and to think critically, not to live by one dogmatic or normative view.

So, in that regard your greatest fears have indeed been realized. I hope you sleep better at night.

edspievack

What king of nonsense do you mean? Classic economic theory? or the "myth" we live in a free rather than an oligopolstic market?

82% of the oil production in the world is by national oil companies rather than multi-national companies, and as we import about 1/4th of our gasoline and some national oil has refining in the US and about half of the refining is by companies without production or marketing of their own,a very small part of the US market are in what I think you are calling oligopolies .

I agree that classic economic theory is screwed up, there is a physical limit to resources that it is ignoring. But you need to examine your "facts" if you think prices are controlled by big oil companies.
Bob Ebersole

I don't know why I seem to be responding to your comments so often, Bob; maybe you say things that I'm interested in...

82% of the oil production in the world is by national oil companies rather than multi-national companies, and as we import about 1/4th of our gasoline and some national oil has refining in the US and about half of the refining is by companies without production or marketing of their own,a very small part of the US market are in what I think you are calling oligopolies .

I am curious about how much of the infrastructure of these 82% national companies is really built and maintained by branches of the IOC's. I also wonder how much of the oil handling is done by the IOC's for those national interests, but not in name. In other words, how much of the '82% national oil companies' is in name only? How many people are really making decisions about poking holes or opening valves? Are the IOC's really proportional in their influence, or do the talking heads making recommendations get all their information from IOC representatives, then the Wall St. representatives and boardrooms of the NOC's take their cues from these ("Exxon's not drilling, why should we?")?
This is critical when making evaluations of the influences which 'control' the flow of oil and the flow of cash from oil. If most of the oil money ends up plastered around in the offices of Wall Street when all is said and done, then calling the Kettle a "Black Oligopoly" might be appropriate. It doesn't mean that the prices are 'controlled', but perhaps the System which we think of as competitive is simply part of a much larger System of Systems which has taken on a life of its own that has no decency for the living world that created it (RE: Collective Corporate Charter Mores).
The Blue Pill may simply be the illusion that we can put the genie back in the bottle at any time before the market 'clears'.

What I don't understand is, what causes supply and demand curves to shift? And what are the actual supply and demand curves for oil right now? Can anyone give me a chart like:

Supply curve:
10 mbd at $10 per barrel
20 mbd at $20
30 mbd at $28
40 mbd at $44
50 mbd at $49
60 mbd at $58
70 mbd at $64
80 mbd at $69
84 mbd at $72 (current situation)
90 mbd at $80
100 mbd at $120
110 mbd at $150

Demand curve:
120 mbd at $10 per barrel
110 mbd at $15
100 mbd at $40
90 mbd at $60
84 mbd at $72 (current situation)
80 mbd at $100
60 mbd at $150
25 mbd at $250
15 mbd at $500

How could you compute a REAL set of numbers like this? If we had real numbers like this, we could say "Okay, if world oil supply drops to 80 mbd from Hurricane Dean, oil producers will be willing to supply 80 mbd at $69 per barrel, and people will be willing to consume 80 mbd at $100 per barrel (as per the chart above)...so...how do you resolve this into one price? Average the two? 80 mbd at $84.50 per barrel will be the new equilibrium? Am I understanding this correctly?

And why do they present themselves along one set of particular curves, and not shifted to the left or right respective to where they are now. It seems like supply and demand curves give a plausible explanation for shifts in price, but how can they be used to explain the starting price?

The problems are twofold.

First, the bivariate relationships are not linear, but are usually shown that way for simplification. If anything, they are asymptotic S-curves. So, if you took 1MB, 2MB, or 5MB out of the system, you would not get a 1:1 price reduction for each of those, but some other larger logarithmic factor.

Worse, the concepts "supply" and "demand" hide a lot of other concepts that are endogenous to them. Most of those terms are "informational," but they also have myriad causes in their variation, which sometimes take a lot of time to get sorted out, reflecting an imperfect price signal.

Since we live in an imperfect information environment, sometimes the market does not function as it should...

Economics works under a certain set of assumptions. Criticize the assumptions and imperfections of the model? Sure, absolutely.

But understand that there are some insights to be gleaned as well.

But understand that there are some insights to be gleaned as well.

Yeah.
But what insights do we gain from an "Economist" saying that the world "produces" oil and that the amount of production is not in line with the amount of "consumption"?

That humans are irrational?
Yes.

That Economists are fooled by their own con game?
Yes.

That all of us humans are fooled by the way our language frames the situation?

Criticise the assumptions? Economics is simplified, temporary, rules of thumb taken beyond any domain of applicability - then worshipped by those that know no better.

Its more useful to say the markets are complex, adaptive and evolving systems in which you might occasionally be able spot repeating patterns. Those patterns, however, will never quite repeat, and will disappear when anything interesting happens. If instead you want to understand fundamental things about markets you need to examine underlying drivers, not its outputs. Economics virtually never does this.

Oh, and if an economist ever used the phrase "its an economic law" in front of you, you're allowed to laugh in his face. That includes when someone says "Jevon's Paradox says that ..."

Markets, just like human brains, and other complex, adaptive and evolving systems have emergent properties, well worth understanding in themselves, even when isolated from the fundamental inputs.

I'm not replying to this post by analysing your neural firings. Reductionism is interesting, but sometimes less useful than the systems view.

--
Jaymax (cornucomer-doomopian)

Mathematical equations for supply and demand curves, while they exist, would be pointless and impossible to create. For example, the demand curve for oil is the sum of every single person on the planets personal demand curves, so we are easily talking about trillion+ variable equations assuming each of our personal demand curve has only a limited number of variables. Secondly...such an equation would be out of date instantaneously.... as they are continuously changing. With physics or chemistry you can take a formula, plug in your known variables, and with great precision predict what the value of the unknown variable will be should you carry out the experiment. If you expect that out of economics, then you will be disappointed, as many on this thread seem to be. Economics can not be that precise simply because it is too complicated... way too many variables to forecast reliably or accurately. But that doesn't mean economics is useless. It allows us to create logical, simplified models that can reveal trends and give us insight. For example, one logical insight from the supply curve is that higher prices will encourage suppliers to produce more, with an important qualifier.... "all else being equal." As we know, all else is not equal, and that geological and political constraints will ultimately trump higher prices. The supply/demand curve, with it's two axis simply can't model this, it's a simple model with two variables....price, and quantity demanded. Clearly there are limits to economic models...the primary limiting factor being the human mind. People here are often quick to blame sub-optimal outcomes on free markets when the blame actually rests with sub-optimal human decision making.

The base of economics is resources.

Mathematics is used to describe the endless variables.

All of this is decided in more numerical mathematics of which this eventual medium is called value.

Value needs a means of identification, which is called money (a medium of exchange)

Value also needs something called preservation of usefulness, especially when the meaning of the word is singularly directed/concerning this means of "money".

Value certainly means scarcity when it relates to money. And, this is because money relates to this means of exchange economics. And, this is because those economics relate to resources, that of which, provide the scarcity and value because they are not an INFINITE MATHEMATICAL NUMERICAL EQUATION. Sorry.

There can be no basis of any sound policy of direction (energy or bingo) when the variables of the "value" of money are infinite, meaningless, and unaccountable.

I tend to simplify problems. Perhaps it causes problems in the outer ripples of faux fiat details? Then again, maybe it resolves/requires minds to ponder the REAL cause of all those outer ripples they so blindly trust to make these grand fiat elaborations upon.

All of the energy in this wonderous blue marble world is 93 million miles away and it is about time we give some serious real-time effort to this wasted energy value beyond the bullshit of valueless fiat directives.

Fiat = somethin' fer nuthin'.