<DrumBeat: September 4, 2007The Oil DrumA TOD Community Update>

51 comments on Ethanol and the Environment

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bmcnett on September 4, 2007 - 1:38pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

By your argument an electric bike would be even better than a JPod, since it uses even less energy to move even less mass.

I love electric bikes, but I can't see American auto traffic switching from cars to bikes without going through a scooter phase first. It would be too dangerous to mix bikes with 70mph SUVs.

Your point that photovoltaics waste less energy is correct, if we forget the energy it takes to manufature and maintain photovoltaics:

http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=1279972007

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BillJames on September 4, 2007 - 2:14pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

There will be a lot of niche solutions. Electric bikes are a great solution for many uses.

Carrying luggage, elderly, children, families, cargo and other transport needs may not be ideal of bikes. The primary niche for JPods is highly repetitive travel less than 30 miles.

I do not know how everything will turn out but do believe the sooner we implement a diverse set of options the more durable our economy will become.

bill.james@jpods.com
It costs less to move less

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robert2734 on September 4, 2007 - 2:25pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

A step up from an electric bike would be to get a GEM glorified electric golf cart. Seats four, some cargo, range of 40 miles. When I commute to work, I don't take the family or cargo. Recharge the battery from solar panels if you want.

I would like to see a 48 VDC electrified line that any and all light electric vehicles can tap into. They can bill you for what you use. If I got a bike and you got an electric locomotive, we can both tap the same power rail but your bill will be bigger than mine.

RobertInSantaBarbara

I haven`t escaped from reality. I have a daypass.

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BillJames on September 4, 2007 - 2:48pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I think there will be a great niche for golf carts also. We plan that personal JPods can drop onto a golf cart frame for last mile solutions.

A key issue for the golf cart market will be safety on high ways with mixed vehicle traffic. Morgantown PRT has logged 110 million injury free passenger miles.

The ability of JPods to travel in a different plain than current traffic has speed, safety and capacity benefits. Automated travel provides mobility regardless of age or ability.

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robert2734 on September 4, 2007 - 3:12pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I second your motion for a dedicated right of way for light electric vehicles.

RobertInSantaBarbara

I haven`t escaped from reality. I have a daypass.

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jokuhl on September 4, 2007 - 2:38pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

bmcnett:
I am also eager to see more development for just plain bikes, as well, or electrics that attach/detach easily. I'd like to see commuter trains built with 'Biker Cars' (and Biker Bars?), so we can have 'intermodal commuting' .. your legs do the first-mile and the last-mile, easy!

re: The Scotsman article..
This was in Drumbeat a few weeks ago. I'm afraid it hasn't improved much with age.

Here is my first of a handful of comments below that unfortunate article;

"..."according to a study by scientists"

"The research was carried out by a team in Greece.."

Who is this reporter? Daniel Parker needs to connect this claim to a trackable group or institution for this article to have any meaning. This is as fresh as the Foreward in Michael Crichton's 'State of Fear', which claims that, tho' fiction, the work represents the findings of 'real scientists at real universities'. Oh my!

According the the US's NREL, or National Renewable Energy Labs, a solar electric installation will recover its embodied energy, including the aluminium and other 'balance of system' (BOS) components in 2 to 5 years, depending on which technology is used plus other particulars. Anything that requires a fuel input to operate is, by definition never able to recover all it's energy inputs, since they are continually being added on top, while pollution is spilling out the backside.

They don't mention the advantages that we can get from rooftop solar to gird against the increasing likelihood of grid failures (I'm assuming for UK, the US is certainly lagging), whether caused by intense weather conditions or underinvestment in maintenance, probably both. Distributed generation, with both Solar and Wind will help to level the loading on the wires so that overcapacity disruptions (meltdowns) can be lessened, and remote areas can continue self-generating when key links have gone down.

Here are two links with some checkable findings..
http://www.nrel.gov/pv/thin_film/docs/20theuropvscbarcelo...

http://ge5.green-e.org/myths/Myths-Solar.htm

Best Hopes for responsible reporting!
Bob Fiske

-- should be noted from the NREL study that the best of these panels can recover their embodied energy in about one Year, when you're not counting the BOS components.

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bmcnett on September 4, 2007 - 7:43pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Bob Fiske,

You're right that the Scotsman article is weak. Your first link is broken, too.

Your second link asserts that PV panels pay back their energy investment in a few years, but doesn't explain how. I'm meant to assume that this is usable energy captured from a day of average length. I'm going to need a little more information before I can decide anything. A Googling I go.

Bryan

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jokuhl on September 4, 2007 - 11:41pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Here's Wiki's statement. The NREL link was clipped, but I can't find it there right now..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics

Under the EROEI section
" Crystalline silicon PV systems presently have energy pay-back times of 1.5-2 years for South-European locations and 2.7-3.5 years for Middle-European locations. For silicon technology clear prospects for a reduction of energy input exist, and an energy pay-back of 1 year may be possible within a few years. Thin film technologies now have energy pay-back times in the range of 1-1.5 years (S.Europe).[42] With lifetimes of such systems of at least 30 years, the EROEI is in the range of 10 to 30. "

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