242 comments on Economic Impact of Peak Oil Part 3: What's Ahead?
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242 comments on Economic Impact of Peak Oil Part 3: What's Ahead?
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GAIA Host Collective
Perhaps someone can come up with a more favorable scenario wtih respect to how land is treated. I could think of less favorable ones as well - just taking the land without compensation; or trumping up charges to jail the landowner. We take property rights for granted. I hope we can continue to do so in the future.
You are spot on here, Gail. Most of us forget just how fundamental property rights are to our modern way of life. Indeed, it was property rights that were at the center of the foundation of the modern day nation states.
The maintenance of property rights is entirely dependent on the existence of a legitimate authority to enforce them.
I must confess, however, that I am not as big a fan of property rights as they currently exist as you are. I would like to see a collapse in the belief in private property and the rise of communal rights of appropriate use without ownership.
Defining property and property rights will be fundamental to the shape of the world we create post oil.
"We take property rights for granted. I hope we can continue to do so in the future."
There's just this huge disconnect.
I just conversed with my family who were out watching
a six row cotton picker traversing a field.
http://www.usfarmer.com/listingimg/1/1/9/0/6/1/content/images/usforg_Bos...
Imagine going back to hand picking cotton to feel the disconnect.
IMHO Government will not be buying farmland.
And it seems you're implying the Soviet Collective
as well as Stalin making war on the Kulaks over
"hoarding".
There are so many variables here.
Think electric submersible wells-
"We have 12-inch wells with pumps set 80 to 100 feet deep and pump 1,200 gallons per minute."
W/O AC these wells are useless.
How cities react to this year's lack of wheat
and the fight over eliminating US Farm Subsidies
this Winter will go a long way in foretelling.
The International Grains Council reduced its forecasts for global and Australian wheat production substantially on Thurday. The ICG cut its global wheat production forecast from from 607m tonnes to just 601m tonnes and slashed its estimate for Australian output to 13.5m tons. This is 2m tonnes below the most recent forecast from the Australian government and 9m tonnes lower than last month’s estimate by the ICG.
Wheat stocks for the five largest global exporters are forecast to fall to a 34-year low of 25m tonnes.
In other words lowest ever.
In terms of actual wheat on hand and per capita.
Sincerely yours,
James
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
Pumps are not difficult to keep operating. Diesel engines can be replaced by electric motors. Stationary devices are generally easier to keep working than mobile devices because you can run electric wires to stationary devices.
We in the United States expect the rule of the law to be in effect. Yes, even with the poison from the disloyal Christian Right spreading through the system at high levels we groundlings still have some deeply ingrained expectations.
Reading and responding here is about changing one's expectations and I often see people arguing one point or another, yet holding many other implicit assumptions steady. This is the first time I've seen the long term viability of the rule of the law called into question. I think this going out from under us is going to be as big a change as the end to our expectation of cheap energy. A quarter of the population, those with that authoritarian personality, will simply go along with whatever new system evolves (heh, evolution), but the rest ... we are the descendants of those who wouldn't put up with it, now aren't we?
The possibility of descent into feudalism pops up here and there in conversations, but the mechanics of that are that a landed elite provides a measure of security and stability in a given geographic area. Those who are the financial elite today may have some of the tools in today's terms to set up such a thing, but if they don't have the foresight to do it now don't imagine they'll rise to the top after an implosion. The skills needed to move funny money around to one's advantage don't translate into those needed for ruling a fiefdom from horseback.
Ask this question of those here who dwell in rural areas now - "What structure will your government have when the federal level collapses and the state is constrained by expensive fuel and low revenues?"
Very good.
"The skills needed to move funny money around to one's advantage don't translate into those needed for ruling a fiefdom from horseback.
Ask this question of those here who dwell in rural areas now - "What structure will your government have when the federal level collapses and the state is constrained by expensive fuel and low revenuues."
Exactly what I've been studying
since '78.
I've got stories of "coupons" issued to the Mercantile.
Panic of '07, Going to Memphis, scavenging Trolley car change
to complete land deals.
Whoever can get the crops grown and out to the mills
will be take over.
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
What structure? Martial "law". Blackwater. Petraeus' divided communities. Travel restrictions. Probably all sorts of stuff done under misnomer of "public health emergency".
Blackwater is playing games in Iraq compared to what
they'll have to do with my state.
AAMOF, I expect to be meeting/hearing about BW Spec Ops
from my state of AR.
All of a sudden BW mercs will be defending instead of
relocating.
Completely different scenario.
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
It does seem like Iraq is a good picture of one future possibility for the USA. Lots of angry people with guns just shooting each other without much discernable structure to the mayhem. Worst of all the government!
This is the first time I've seen the long term viability of the rule of the law called into question.
No, its been questioned before. One poster (who never came back) was asking for e-mails so s/he would have a list of names to start a revolution, and the occasional 'I'm gonna go into the woods, forage for food and you all will die' posters.
I have no doubt there will be rule of law - I just doubt what the law will BE. Oh, and how much short brown sticky end of the stick will I be grabb'n.
Sacred: The rule of law usually applies in the USA, but not always. During Katrina, a group of Canadian tourists were staying at an upscale hotel. The hotel hired a bus to transport them out of harm's way. The bus was stopped by local police (at gunpoint) and the tourists were forced off the bus (they didn't know what the local police did with the bus). They huddled together on a street in New Orleans overnight-can't remember what happened to them after that but IMHO this was a preview of what parts of the USA will be like when TSHF.
One problem is that we have become accustomed to thinking of land with a mortgage as 'our' land, and I imagine that most land, both residential and farm, has some kind of lien against it. This
story in the NY Times gives some chilling stories about how lenders can jerk you around and not only take 'your' land but destroy your livelihood.
Even if you own your land free of lender liens, there are always property taxes. At least there is the possibility here of taxpayers joining together and using the ballot box to keep the taxes from going too outrageous.
Get out of debt.
Keep after it like a mantra, until you are.
It's the 80/20 Principle writ large.
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
I don't want to sound insensitive, and I certainly have no love for the giant mortgage corporations, but the people in the article have no one to blame but themselves.
Jane bought her house for $298k in 1998. In 2006 her principal was up to $442k!!! By this time she had an interest rate of 11% with payments of $5200/month. No wonder she couldn't afford the house! Accrued interest and penalties add up really quickly at 11%! Is it Countrywide's fault she didn't pay?
Zena lost her job and had to take a new one paying 50% less. Yet it's Countrywide's fault that she refinanced to an interest only loan at 10.9% and now has only $600/month after she makes her mortgage payment?
The moral: Live within your means.
G
ggg71,
I just wanted to point out that on an individual level, you are right, but on a national level you are not. This is a broad observation, not a personal attack against you. I just hear moral recommendations bandied about all the time as if they are a solution. One of my good friends from college used to say "If everyone just behaved like me there wouldn't be any problem." True, so true it isn't even worth mentioning.
It's Jane's problem to the extent that she is going to lose her house and her credit rating.
It's Countrywide's problem to the extent that they aren't getting paid.
Both Jane and the bank should have made better choices. As far a Jane and the bank are concerned the moral: Live within your means. makes a lot of sense.
But, multiply that by millions:
It's the nation's problem to the extent that there are bankrupt people and a collapsed financial system.
Now it is no longer a moral question of individual actions. It is a society wide question of systems and organization.
As an example: Kids in inner city schools.
Growing up on the low end of the financial spectrum in an underfunded inner city school means that little Johnny has to work extra hard to get good grades to get a scholarship in order to afford college. Little Johnny has been told this several times. If he goes to jail in a decade for dealing drugs, it will be because he made a poor choice.
But, the state has to have a prison to put him in. It has to be built before he gets arrested, so the state sends someone to the inner city school. He takes a look around. He makes notes about the average income, quality of education, social cohesion, etc. And he tells the state how many prisons they are going to need in ten years.
The state planner makes this recommendation based on very accurate statistical model (called a bell curve) and it work something like this: Most people are average, some are above and some are below.
Given the circumstances here at this inner city school he expects very little to come of the average person, he expects the below average ones to go to jail and the above average ones to escape to something else.
Little Johnny is going to be average. His children are going to go to the same school he did. One of Johnny's friends is going to Penn State and one of them is going to the state pen.
This pattern will persist as long as the average income, social cohesion, quality of education, etc. remain the same. You can lecture the inner city school kids about morality 'till you are blue in the face and the statistical outcome will remain unchanged. If, however, you change the system, then you can expect different results.
On an individual level it is appropriate to talk about morality and common sense because individuals make specific decisions. On a society wide level it is appropriate to talk about systems and structures because groups have a distribution of outcomes based on incentives and circumstances.
Tim
Edit: changed fault to problem, bank to Countrywide, added summary, and made one paragraph into two.
I blame the teachers. They should drill basic concepts into their students heads, like, "don't sign contracts you don't understand", "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch", and "sometimes advertising is misleading". The last one was specifically taught in my early '80s grade 6 home economics class. I suppose it was an echo of the '70's oil crunch.
If home economics--basic budgeting, simple cooking skills, nutrition, comparison shopping--were taught properly, the US would be much better off. Exactly right, ggg71-- live within your means.
Unfortunately, many of us were taught by teachers who grew up when energy was free and there were still opportunities; those teachers never needed to know about thrift, and never taught it.
Property will depend on where you are. Property will be worthless in the cities and large towns. Even small towns may see many die, hence those empty houses and lots can be used by those who remain.
Those in rural areas will have to work on farms, or in garbage dumps reclaiming plastics and metals.
Money would be worthless for some time, until people start to have some faith in it. Problem with money is people with some technology available to them would be able to print it in their basements, and there would be little in the way of knowing what is "real" or fake. Hence there would be little trust of paper money.
Richard
London, Ont.
No one is ahead of their time, just the rest of humanity is slow to catch on.
Gail (and others)
I think you will appreciate my forthcoming "post-oil" novel, "World Made By Hand," which is pretty consistent with Gail's view here.
Jim Kunstler
Saratoga Springs, NY
I look forward to reading your forthcoming novel. I enjoyed (if that is the right word) "The Long Emergency".
Jim- My eyes were opened big time by The Long Emergency. Took a while to get over the shock but I've been busy ever since...made lots of changes. Thanks for the warning.
My reading of The Long Emergency was my swallowing of the Red Pill. My life hasn't been the same. While reading another 10 books on the topic and reading the peak oil websites, we first stocked up on supplies. We paid off our mortgage and all debts. Started a large garden and planted 20 fruit trees. Learned how to can and dry food. Became even more commited to homeschooling our two sons. Volunteered on a start-up 800 acre organic farm not far from where we live. And just bought our own little farm of 13 acres of black dirt (Orange County, NY) with a small barn and well. This winter we'll be studying up on how to farm it. So, yes. We too have made a lot of changes in two years. We've tried to talk to family/friends about it but no one really wants to look at it. It requires too much work to face it.
The Geography to Nowhere and Cities and the Wealth of Nations
by Jane Jacobs. These two books brought my love of geography
and what really is eco-nomics together for me.
I lost the G to N book. But I still remember the
"widened road/tractor trailer turn arounds" pics.
Thanx.
James
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
I see Geography of Nowhere: The Rise and Decline of America's Landscape by James Kuntsler is still available on Amazon.
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Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens