Stone: Interesting article but I question the endless comparisons of the USA and Japan. The USA has nothing in common with Japan at all-the USA is more like a large, powerful, rich Mexico or Argentina. Japan's deflation was directly tied to its powerful currency and huge trade surplus. I am not aware of any examples of long lasting deflation occurring in any country with an extremely weak currency and a huge trade deficit. The USA of 2007 is not the USA of 1929 (in 1929 the USA was an industrial powerhouse).

I always have to laugh at the deflation arguments. It has been more than half a century in which US trade deficit, all US wars even US corporate growth has been financed by exporting inflation to greenback holders.

The idea this could spontaneously be reversed and the FED will just stand by when credit collapses strikes me as laughable. I'd rather expect them just handing bags of freshly printed paper to everyone willing to take it, than allowing this to happen.

There is another idea about what causes deflation, or possibly better, a deflationary spiral - if there are simply too many factories producing a good, the result in the marketplace leads to murderous price wars, which result in workers losing their job, meaning less customers for the factories, and the spiral continues.

Considering that a number of regions have heavily invested in roughly the same markets, the conditions for this style of deflation, which could be considered its own form of last man standing, are somewhat given.

The Chinese are unlikely to stop simply employing a few hundred million people because the market for mass consumer goods is shrinking - instead, they will try to get ahead of the curve by forcing others workers to loss their jobs.

This style of deflation is quite likely, in my eyes - there are a lot of economies reliant on the same basic system.

Expat: Yes, Chinese goods can get cheaper. Right now the ave US family who pays for health insurance is paying $12000 a year. Does anyone foresee this bill "deflating" to $4000 a year? How about taxes in general? Are grocery bills going to deflate, along with energy costs? In Japan, it wasn't just a property and equity collapse, the actual living expenses decreased. Is this going to happen with the use of the American peso?

Sure, I can imagine a large number of Americans having their health care costs sink way below the level that is considered customary today - how much health care did many of the workers building houses over the last five years receive? And these were literally millions of workers and their families, who just happened to be illegal. Didn't stop them from making an economic contribution, and to an extent, their being willing to work for less, not only their wages but in terms of legal rights or health care, meant that many Americans had to compete at the same level.

As for food - that is a kicker, I'll admit. For the first time in human history, we are actually burning food intentionally, instead of eating it. Hard to tell whether we are willing to starve the poor to death to keep driving to the mall (regardless of how many die, it won't keep the suburbs humming), but the question of demand destruction is at least as open as the question of supply destruction. Add in climate change, and the picture is grim. I think there is little question that the percentage of income devoted to food will rise towards its historical average - for a round number, let's use 5 times more expensive than today. Which means that a lot of other economic activity will be pushed aside, as food is a basic good. The competition for that remaining income will be fierce, to put it mildly.

Deflationary spirals are arguably not measured in monetary terms, but instead in social terms - are the number of jobs shrinking, is the wage being paid less able to maintain an accustomed lifestyle, do people start living differently because there is less available?

I still lean towards deflation, if only because it has been so long since it last occurred in America. But I don't think it will be well measured in terms of dollars, and that stagflation is almost as equally likely. What deflation means in this view is that one is demonstrably poorer in material terms, as are the other people around one.

Of course, poverty is relative - I buy things which last, generally reparable, thus lasting even longer, instead of always buying items that are trashed after a brief period. If I understand current American norms, this means I'm strange, if not a social outcast. And that this way of life is to be avoided, since it is a sign of failure, compared to buying ever more stuff to be stored in ever larger homes by ever larger consumers with ever larger debt.

Bankrupt means not buying anything, regardless of price, and I think Americans have essentially bankrupted themselves. Not all Americans, of course, but the vast majority, have been actively involved in an ever growing cycle of consumption and debt, one which is likely to end, and when it ends, it will be defensible to consider it as 'deflation.' The process hasn't started yet, though possibly, the first glimpses of how it will play out can be imagined.

Expat-I think what you are predicting is a depression. You might be right.

Expat as always your words are gold.

Yes, you are very Anti-American in your buying and living habits.

Not as Anti-American as I am though, as I have, in trying to "do the right thing" and keep my biz going, only going into greater and greater debt, flamed out. I am buying very little these days, and living very simply. My bankruptcy, which will be done soon, will "destroy" about $100k dollars, which I'm sure have been sliced, diced, renamed, relabeled, and are parts of peoples' stocks and bonds and funds and so on. I feel really bad about this huge amount of money which will disappear, since if I could have only gone on longer, I'm sure I could finally flame out a few years from now and destroy 2X-3X as much! Oh well, nothing in America is worth doing so much as overdoing, and I've overdone all I could.

Yes we are just beginning to see the mass bankruptcies, not only of homedebtors but of small biz's and of students, who are ending up in as much debt as the average mortgage holder. The homedebtors run out of "greater fools", the small biz people find out the suddenly pinched or destitute make poor customers, and the students, worse of all (because their debt is nondischarable) find there are no jobs.

This will be the real surprise to the powers that be, that there's so much STUFF in America's storage units and mcmansions and garages and thrift stores, that the American public can simply not buy anything beyond bare essential foodstuffs etc for a period of years, if their worldview will only change. And change it will.

welcome back

I think you miss the distinction between nominal and real prices. In a deflation, nominal price will fall, but that does not necessarily imply that things become more affordable. Real prices are adjusted for changes in the money supply (ie inflation/deflation, which are monetary phenomena). If the money supply is falling faster than nominal prices, then prices will increase in real terms and $4000 a year for health care then may be far less affordable than $12000 is now. I would expect a similar dynamic in real estate - I think house prices will come down by 90% before a deflationary depression ends, but the remaining 10% would be less affordable than 100% is now under conditions of severe economic hardship and little or no access to credit.

The same thing is likely to happen across the board when money is scarce and hard to come by. Nominal prices will be low because there will be little money and essentially no credit, and many assets will be offered for sale at once by people trying to raise money. Most people simply won't be in a position to take advantage of low nominal prices (an opportunity is an opportunity precisely because so few are in a position to take advantage of it). It's the converse of the easy money circumstances we've enjoyed for years, where increases in the money supply have led to increasing asset prices (while downward pressure on wages and prices due to global trade and wage arbitrage kept those low).

The Fed doesn't actually give money out; it LOANS it, at interest. That is the key to understanding how deflation can occur.

Really, our current fractional reserve banking system is inherently deflationary. When I borrow, say, $100,000US to buy a house, that money is created out of nothing. When I pay back the loan, the money is destroyed. However, I don't just have to pay back 100K. I have to pay back that (the principal), plus interest. In the case of a 30-year loan, that interest will be something like $170,000US. That 170K doesn't exist, and it won't exist until someone borrows it.

The system is almost a Ponzi scheme. If the money supply fails to grow fast enough to provide money to pay back previous loans, the previous loans default, and the system collapses.

The system has a peculiar danger, which is runaway borrowing. If the rate of borrowing gets high enough, you have to constantly expand the size of the loans & the pool of people you are loaning to. Eventually you exhaust the ability to accelerate debt. The Fed can encourage debt, but it cannot force banks to loan nor borrowers to borrow.

The fact that we have moved down to sub-prime borrowers in the US is a sign that we're near the end. What would be next? Loans to the unemployed and homeless?

Most Americans are near the end of their ability to service more debt. When a critical mass of people cannot take on new debt, the money supply will cease to expand fast enough to create the money needed to pay the interest on old debts, so old debts will start to default. That will destroy money, shrinking the money supply even faster. Voila, you have a deflationary spiral caused solely by the inability of people to take on debt fast enough.

Now, it is always possible that American financiers can find enough suckers overseas to keep the Ponzi scheme going for a while longer, or maybe they really will start loaning money to the homeless.

In any case, the only way for the scheme to keep going is for there to be real economic growth at a flat rate into infinity. Peak oil, runaway debt creation, climate change, wars, as well as several other things mean the system cannot grow into infinity. The monetary system will collapse into deflation at some point. It is just a question of when & what will be the trigger.

Shargash: You are correct. My original point is that comparisons with Japan are useless. Japan had a long period of deflation with low unemployment and a very minor to nil drop in standard of living at the median. Japan had a classic "deflation" as opposed to a depression caused by the USA Ponzi scheme collapsing, which is what you are predicting. IMHO, any economy-wide deflation in the USA will be accompanied by massive unemployment, unlike in Japan.

The Fed doesn't actually give money out; it LOANS it, at interest.

True, this is what the FED does under normal circumstances.

I am simply asserting that if/when this is not enough, they will start the printing press and simply buy back whatever assets are perceived to be endangered with money created from thin air... and in the information era you don't even need a printing press - just a tiny bit of software creating electronic records for deposits which came from nowhere.

They can do it, they have the legal right to do it and they will do it if they think it is necessary. Isn't this what Milton Friedman (whose faithful follower is our Ben) said about the Great Depression? If they simply printed the money when the panic began the depression would have been averted.