IMO, what our mathematical modeling primarily shows is the rise and fall of the large oil fields. Regardless of one's political philosophy--Ayn Rand capitalist or Marxist Communist--we tend to find the big fields first. And the smaller fields that we find post-peak can't offset the declines from the old, large fields--whether it is the East Texas Field decline in Texas, or the Ghawar Field decline in Saudi Arabia.

One of the more bizarre discussions I had in the past few months was whether world oil production could grow if every single oil field that has ever produced one mbpd or more of crude oil is definitely in decline.

"One of the more bizarre discussions I had in the past few months"

Yes, however you are surely now ready to admit that your earlier prognostications are almost singly responsible for the depleting credibility of the peak oil community.

Are you kidding?

So far everything that is happening over the last 2 years has consistent with what WT has been saying. Don't know yet if this will continue to be the case, but so far nothing is challenging the peak oil community credibility except CERA and other's CLAIM that the peak is still to come. Over a year since total liquids peak, over 2 yrs since oil peak - if the numbers aren't exceeded in the next couple of yrs I think the game is up.

Way to go, WT!

I personally hold you singularly responsible for the decline and fall of Western Civilization. No wait I mean the Western Front.

No no wait I'm confused. (sips more coffee, laced with pathosanol, jots note to self: diol substitution? )

I have a rendezvous with death...

Remember WT has presented two things the Export Land model and ELP. It looks like as usual we are going to make the right decision way to late but ELP is not a bad life especially if coupled with the electric rail proposals.

I for one will not be sad to see the infinite growth lie to be exposed and a saner more realistic way of living take its place. So the ELP message needs as much exposure as ExportLand.

Its saddening that we are so arrogant and wasteful that it looks like millions if not billions will die because we are wasting our current oil supplies feeding the dying infinite growth propaganda machine.

The only thing I can say is that the Third world is as guilty as the first of turning its back on sustainable living so they share in the blame its not just wasteful Americans.

But hopefully ELP and electric rail will become important soon so don't forget WT second message from the mount or more apt the plain :)

The third world ha been duped into believing that they can all live the American model, They are reaching or this goal in india and china, the reality is that the world can not support another major first world economy based on the current model of buy bury and waste resources.

A perfect example of this is made in a recent TV show in Ireland Future Shock: End of the Oil Age at http://www.rte.ie/tv/futureshock/

While Ireland is not a poor country anymore, it was so just a generation ago, the country has so emulated the American model that it is has gone to a very different place than it was. From a country that while poor was basically starting from scratch in the 70s and 80s, the road that they went down was one of suburbia and sprawl Dublin is getting bigger than la with a 7th of the population. As a tabla blanca the planners and government could have gone down the other path but there was no obvious need to do so.

The blame goes to the planners and oil execs who knew as far back as the 70's that peak oil was a reality. How much of the suffering that is going to occur in the future could have been avoided if big oil had let onthat the future was not as energy rich as they let on.

So it's the third world that has been duped? Somehow I thought it was the first world that has been duped into believing that everything can continue just as it is. I haven't seen any big move away from SUV's, cheap airfares, weekend vacations in the sun, driving to 7-11 for a slurpee, fresh flowers from Africa, my entitlement to a 4,000 sq ft home, cars for the kids, ATVs, living in Phoenix or Las Vegas, etc etc (all parts of our non-negotiable lifestyle that need buckets of energy). So whether there are Katrina effects or not we have some nasty big problems ahead of us. And you think it was a tough sell just trying to get PO on the agenda. Now try to explain that maybe we have also had Peak Lifestyle.

The point is everyone is guilty of drinking the kool-aid.

Certainly if the third world had not tried to follow in the footsteps of the first world and rejected aspiring to the American dream you outlined and instead invested in sustainable high tech they would not be getting the shaft now.

Simply because they waste less does not mean they made the right decisions and I'm sure given the chance they would be just as bad as any American look at the consumption of China's growing middle class. We are all pigs just some are skinner pigs.

I'm sure the peak oil message is not going over any better in the third world than the first and ELP is a hard sell to those who should adapt the most.

Put it this way the third world countries tend to have reasonable natural resources they could have easily leveraged those to buy/build learn technology/medicine to create a ELP culture.

They did not.

No disagreement from me, the cities like those you mentioned as well as Orlando, are unsustainable in an energy scarce future, Take away cheap AC and water from them and they will be very harsh places to live especially if you live in a house designed after the advent of AC. Even if the power goes of for a few hours in one of these homes on a day in the summer it takes a couple of days for the house to cool off again at full AC.

Peak Lifestyle is what the RTE documentary is all about but of course much of what is said can apply to the new cities of America.

Its indefatigable ignorance as a cultural choice. Until the peak lifestyle becomes apparent to enough people that the opinion makers catch on to attract and point the masses attention. Which is ALWAYS too late . . . http://newenergyandfuel.com/ . . . So you're right, peak lifestyle was and is shrinking for many right now. With more to come of course.

umass82 -

Jimmy Carter knew - and he told everybody. Actually, everybody knows that everything will have a peak, and they always have known. But, in the 1970's, no one had a clue as to when peak oil would occur worldwide - just WAG's. Right now, the world is running out of 100's of key items, but no one "knows" when the real problems will begin, oil excepted, because of the size of the oil market and the attention it gets.

JC did try to wean the US of of foreign oil, it is one of the things that cost him the election in 1980. The US did not want to deal with this perhaps what we have here is a ostrich feedback loop, Politicians will not try to force the country to change because hey believe it is political suicide, and because there has been little leadership on this issue then the country is not going to make the changes needed,

I do not believe that there is a real awareness on this issue. I believe that people just do not want to know, the reality is too much for the soccer mom and dad crowd.
That is what doomed JC's reelection bid people did not want to hear gloom and doom they wanted it to be morning again on America and for a while perhaps it was but at the expense of so much.

Awareness it seems will only come when it is too late. The days of a cornucopias society are of course limited, the commodities markets are a reflection of this from iron to copper etc et. It took a lot to convince people on global warming, and still some do not believe in it or do not see it as a bad thing, more days at the beach, long term this will screw us but at least there is some awareness of it, however PO is a train wreck that is going to hit soon and the lack of government and media attention is astounding.

toilfor oil-

That seems odd that you should say the peak oil community has decreasing credibility, as it appears the opposite is true to me. Peak oil is being mentioned with more regularity in the mainstream media, and even the National Petroleum Council is using some of the charts with ASPO predictions on them .

Which of WT's prognostications do you consider as depleting credibility, and why? Or did you just post this as a gratuitous ad hominem attack? Bob Ebersole

Uuucchh..uumm, he grunted, as though clearing his throat.

WT-
when did you start making your first "prognostications"?
-----
Just remember the Golden Years, all you at the top!

Probably January, 2006, regarding net oil exports, followed up by work regarding Saudi production specifically, and overall world production.

Well then, which "earlier" forecasts do you think he would be talking about? The ones in the early '90s?-)

Are we slow to recognize some big fields? I've become curious about esitmates of 400 bbl in the Bakken formation. You can read the Leigh Price paper here.

Chris

It's not oil; it's shale. It needs extensive energy-intensive processing to be useable. There is no way it can be ramped up quickly enough- It's the size of the tap that counts, not the size of the tank.

Plus it would be environmentally catastrophic.

Actually, not so far as I can tell, the formation is shale but it drips oil which is recovered as oil using horizontal wells. The claim then is that there may be 200 bbl recoverable.

Any oil is catastrophic at this point. I'm just wondering if we could be in a situation where large fields exist but we just don't recognize them as quickly?

Chris

md solar
Chris,

There's lots of oil in the world. But what makes an oil field economic to produce is the speed at which it can be recovered from the ground and the cost of drilling and production.

When deciding whether to invest in an oil and gas project a company looks at how quickly they will get their money back from drilling and completing the well and the total expected profits from the well. As prices for oil go up, lower volume wells become more profitable.

Right now stripper oil wells in Texas sell for approximately $50,000 per barrel of oil per day, which should pay out in about 48 months. There's some other considrations, too. Low volume wells are very hard to sell unless someone has some other wells located close by because of the labor involved in operating the wells. Somebody needs to check the tanks and repair equipment as it breaks down,call for the salt water disposal truck and generally at least look at a well every day.

But looking for overlooked and bypassed oil is what our friend WesTexas does for a living. I'm looking in old oil fields for oil that has been left stranded when the wells became uneconomic about 50 years or more ago when oil was $2 or $3 a barrel. there's plenty of oil left, but its not able to be produced in volumes big enough for the car culture to continue using internal combustion engines. Bob Ebersole

Hi Bob,

Thanks. From what I've been reading, getting this oil requires a new way of drilling but it would count as a large field at 200 billion barrels recoverable. Apparently production is increasing rapidly with some oil costing only $5/barrel to produce in Canada. So, I wonder if we are seeing a slower recognition of big fields just because more detailed geology is needed. Since so much of the analysis depends on the behavior of large fields, this might have a large effect on conclusions about decline. If we are seeing slow recognition rather than slow discovery then the discovery rate may not be as low as assumed.

Chris

Essentially a correct assessment of the large field/small field conundrum.

In a presentation I am doing I show that the "first peak" of UK offshore C+C production was accomplished with 32 fields, 75% of which were more than 2 million cubic meters production in 1985 with the largest (Forties, Brent, Ninian, Claymore, Thistle, and several others) past peak. Just the first 3 fields on that list have production 1/4 of the UK's offshore production since 1975.

In the lastest peak (1999), the combined contribution of 136 fields was required to exceed the 1985 peak and that just barely by just under 2 million cubic meters for the year. For 2006, the number of fields had increased to 171 with even more in 2007, but the peak(s) are long since past.

While the Forties field continues to produce at a rather prodigious rate compared to the other fields online in 2006(beat only by the Elgin and the Schiehallion fields) , it really is looking like Brent is going away for good over the next couple of years. Each of the fields shows a relatively quick peak and then decline. The current "buzz" is Buzzard, but given the history in this region, it's output will be short-lived.

A similar review of Norway's production is also possible (though I have the information, I just haven't had the time to turn the crank on the data yet).

I think I would have the same reaction (bizarre) as you did.

If you look closely at Norway's production you can see also two peaks:





Hi Khebab,

Powerful graph!

Thanks,
Dave

Cool graph.

This seems to show that the swarm effect I've proposed for smaller fields is real esp the offshore developments.

Basically since the 1980's-1990's a lot of the production has been from small generally offshore wells that are produced quickly and shutin when at best secondary recovery is finished. These well will never be produced to the extremes seen in Texas. In this graph you get a beautiful example in my opinion of the swarm effect acting in aggregate as a giant field. And its clear from your graph that the swarm of small offshore fields developed of the last few decades may in aggregate be in decline.

So not only do we have the big fields in decline which will ensure that we are probably past peak. But also I believe we are facing fairly serious declines in this swarm of small offshore fields which make up a significant amount of production today.

The key point is that these fields decline quickly but new discoveries and the support of the giant fields has allowed us to grow. With both of these exhausted the aggregate decline rate of the small offshore fields should be very steep and play a large role in the overall global decline rate as we past peak.

We'll call it "Twin Peaks." Oh, somebody already used that.

Thanks. Iw was retty sure it would look something like the UK curves.

I also see two peaks in the UK North Sea discovery curves. One strong one and a later broader blip. This plus the disturbance the 1988 Piper Alpha platform fire can cause a purely extraction limited valley between the production peaks.

Khebab,
are there other countries/areas that follow this pattern when split (eg US, russia, the whole world) - large fields peak first, sum of small fields peak second?

Andrew

Perhaps, in some cases, this is what the "dog-leg up" pattern is really showing...the addition of smaller wells all at once.

The infamous dogleg :)

Its and obvious example of a technical change influencing production rate and thus HL results. A more insidious problem is that this swarm of small fields has generally been developed later with more advanced extraction methods so we don't see the "dogleg" from them. In general this means that HL is probably systematically high in its URR estimates for the smaller fields. In effect URR for large fields and URR for many small fields esp ones developed using advanced technology are not equal. The small fields have a bias and URR is over reported and post peak decline rates are probably under reported.

The dogleg highlights a problem with HL thats actually systematic through the data set if its not corrected for small field/technical bias.

Now of course the big question is how big is this correction. My opinion is its fairly large and we are of by a substantial amount especially for global production since swarms of small fields generally offshore produced using advanced methods make up a large portion of current production.

Taken in aggregate we can consider these swarms as another super giant field or sets of super giants divided by region.
Not only are the real giant fields declining but these swarms are also in steep decline and probably decline faster than a real giant field.

probably but unfortunately Norway and the UK are the only countries in the world that are providing complete datasets per field.

I'm sure I'm missing something here.

If you split Norway into three Top/Middle/Small groups with URR/group around 8.2 each, wouldn't you see three peaks?

--
Jaymax (cornucomer-doomopian)

Yes you're right, you can actually split the datasets in as many peaks as you want. The main point here is that 10% of the fields are responsible for 50% of the total production (what Simmons calls the oil pyramid) and that these fields are usually exploited first.

That's incorrect, Khebab. It's actually far worse than that. Robelius has stated that over 60% of all produced oil comes from 1% of the fields. People simply do not grasp the impact of large fields on total production and consequently they cannot grasp the impact of those large fields going into decline. To them it is all "oil" sitting in a "field" somewhere. But most people just do not get that the average oil field is a few tens of millions of barrels total - less than one day's global consumption while the massive fields are so large that they have pumped oil for decades.

"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Dr. Albert Bartlett
Into the Grey Zone

My 10% for 50% is for the particular case of Norway, it's far worst at the world level as you said.

Regardless of one's political philosophy--Ayn Rand capitalist or Marxist Communist--we tend to find the big fields first.

And what about us Shumacher Marxists? We find little piles of pooh first. :)

Regardless of one's political philosophy--Ayn Rand capitalist or Marxist Communist--we tend to find the big fields first.

I've never found an Ayn Randian who took either Global Warming or Peak Oil seriously. In fact, on the internet, they are the most vociferous opponents of both theories, and they dredge up the most spurious and discredited scientific information to support it.

For a Randian, Global Warming is nothing other than a left wing plot to take stuff away from them. Peak Oil is a violation of the doctrine of optimistic cornucopia.

As for Marxists, well, arguably the best country positioned for Peak Oil is the country that already had its 1990s 'power down' -- Cuba.

As for Marxists, well, arguably the best country positioned for Peak Oil is the country that already had its 1990s 'power down' -- Cuba.

..and is also looking to discredit the "bigger first" thing by hitting an enormous pay dirt off their shores...