143 comments on DrumBeat: October 28, 2007
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143 comments on DrumBeat: October 28, 2007
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GAIA Host Collective
::rubs eyes:: Am I still dreaming or did a couple of comments just get nuked?
mine did
I deleted one comment. The reason I deleted it was that it looked like spam to me. (New poster, and the only comment he ever posted was a plug for a specific product, complete with link to commercial web site.)
We've decided to be a little more strict about commercial posts. We're getting a lot more traffic these days, which makes us more attractive to spammers. It hasn't been too bad yet, but it's something we want to nip in the bud.
I'm sorry for the post on the product I didn't mean it as a spam.There have been several post that I've read here about old homes not having the insulation needed.I've used this product and cooling an extra 450 sq ft of our house for $100 less per month and I'm not even done coating the rest of the house.Being a painter there are only two product that I know of on the market and you can do your own digging by insulating paint search this works on the K-value.Once again I apologize I didn't mean it as spam.
I would like to see a debate (with links) on insulating paint. I have toyed with the concept several times but never used it.
Interior as well as exterior paints.
Best Hopes,
Alan
Well Alan from thermodynamics:
Paint is a 1 dimensional spplication, only having thickness. (neglect corner effects, and thermal diffusion down the body)
q/time = thermal diffusivity *applied area* driving force/thickness
As you know, when thickness gets small, (like paint) the q/time increases substantially. In class we never ever ever ever even consider surface nodes for conduction, only convection.
In summary, paint is soo thin that only an application of a miracle material with very very high k value would even have a noticeable effect compared to what the wall is constructed of.
If you want to talk about radiation reflecting paint to prevent absorption of incident solar radiation thats different and can be incorporated into the overall system solution.
I have seen coatings several mm thick, with good effects (hold coated end of metal strip, apply propane torch to other end an inch away).
My guess is that R-1 is possible with a 3.5 mm thick coating. A good way to shelter thermal mass from living space.
Alan
Is the recent Nobel Prize for "the mysteries of surface chemistry", as Jon Stewart put it, at all relevant here?
In your original post I think you mentioned that you've installed a new heat pump. The savings are probably coming from that, or have you somehow ruled that out of your number there?
We installed a new 17 seer from a 10 seer unit.Granted alot comes from that, but our house was built in 1927 still has all lath and plaster I coated the hottest room in the house upstairs bedrm 10x27 with open attic areas on side walls.We never cooled the two rooms upstairs unless company was coming.After coating and you could not tell the difference between down stair and up (extra 450sq ft)This coating uses Nanotech it not the ceramic powder.Most under side of roof decking coated got on ave 50 degree drop.I coated a 6x12 south facing porch roof since it's a clear coat still have the aesthetics but keep the heat out I just need a good hail storm to see how it holds up.
I would like the link since Google for Nanotech lead to confusion (I did find that Mercedes Benz started using clear ceramic paint as an overcoat on their higher end models in 2004).
Thanks,
Alan
I think this was it.
You think correctly.
"new 17 seer from a 10 seer unit"
From what I understand, that's a pretty big jump and it should be 1.7 times as efficient as efficient, more if your old unit had lost efficiency by age. What was the percentage drop in your bill after installation? It's really a shame you did so many things at once and weren't able to measure the effects individually.
"I coated a 6x12 south facing porch roof since it's a clear coat still have the aesthetics but keep the heat out I just need a good hail storm to see how it holds up."
You painted the outside? Would that not let the light in to heat the surface below and then trap the heat beneath?
I'm not trying to hound you or anything, just rather curious. I can think of a good way of testing this stuff though, and that would be to get Kill-a-Watt meter and your fridge, get a good baseline of energy usage (and track room temp), paint your fridge with the stuff and then get an average of after-painted energy usage and see if its statistically significant.
Doing so many things at once was also a consideration but it just happened that way.Our summer bills had ave. between 180 to 240 it dropped to 95-123 the highest.But that is with an added 450 sq ft at 74 degrees.On the 6x12 roof during high sunlight there is a higher sheen which I'm guessing is reflecting sunlight at dusk it reduces to almost nothing.I'm looking for extended roof life it made the shingle almost like a plastic bucket.The company is testing has made app for patent on sheetrock mud and sheetrock plus other building materials.It has a class A fire rating.Around the end of the yr they have said an epoxy will be on the market there is your frig test.Or better yet in the plastc liner of the frig.
I reviewed the performance of a "nanotech" thermal coating used for an industrial application. While it worked well at reducing radiant heat losses (and would also probably work well at reducing radiant heat gains), it's actual conductive R-value was vastly worse than advertised. Had to resort back to good-old foam. Buyers beware.
I would intuitively infer that there is a fairly low limit as to how insulative (in conductive heat loss) a thin film could be. All the insulative materials I'm aware of achieve their insulative value usually with a combination of dead air (or inert gas or vacuum) space and volume. A thin film simply does not have the volume to be able to do this. If I'm wrong, I'd like to see experimental or real world data to this effect.
refer to my upward post. The thermal flux is a function of temperature gradient, thickness, and area. An infinitely thin coating would have an infinitely high thermal flux (basically it would be ignored in the final solution).
You are correct that dead space is important, but prevention of the 3 methods of heat transfer at an economical rate is more so. Conductive, convective, and radiative. Fractal gels are wonderful at this.
At the site listed by vaporlock below
http://www.industrial-nanotech.com/howitworks.htm
they list 'Nansulate' at R-10-13 per inch. Allowing for even the high side of R-13, this would give but a small fraction of an R for a layer of paint. I would bet that a 1" thick coating of the stuff would be way prohibitively expensive. I remain vastly unimpressed.
Here is the specs on the paint and how it works.http://www.industrial-nanotech.com/howitworks.htm
Sorry if I misread your post. I wouldn't have deleted it if you had more of a posting history here. If you're really interested in peak oil, stick around. :)
No problem I understand your consern I'm really interested and you'd probably have to chase me off with a big stick.Knowledge is power and we're going to need all the power we can get.
I thought it may have been spam too when I first saw it, but I decided to follow the link anyway.
Here's a forum, they talk about R-value at the bottom: http://www.nanalyze.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1249&whichpage=2
Something called the "Knudsen effect" gets mentioned, which is interesting. There's certainly not a lot of information on it, and what there is seems to be a bit of black magic. I'm highly skeptical, though intrigued.
Edit:
On that forum I have a link to there, someone's posted what looks like a press release:
There's more but you can go to the link.
I am also very interested in the insulating or reflective paints that are on the market. I understand they were developed by NASA and would have a major impact on household energy use, especially AC. Vacuum ceramic additives are the key.
Any experiences out there?
I tried a product marketed as a Radiant Barrier spray. You apply directly to the underside of the roof decking in the attic. Application is pretty simple with an airless paint sprayer. My results were dissapointing. I was testing to see if this might be a good business to get into. I tracked the temperature in my attic for a week prior to applying and then after. The delta between outside temp. and attic temp. decreased around ten degrees, from 35 F to 25 F, or so. The product was fairly expensive ($250 for a 5-gallon container that covered 1,600 sq. ft. of decking) I wanted to isolate the affects of the spray and made no other changes to insulation levels, etc. I think I would have been far ahead if I would have spent the money blowing an additional 8 inches of insulation. I'm guessing that the majority of customers are going to try the spray and add insulation as well. this would muddle the ineffectiveness of the spray. in my opinion, add insulation, add ventilation, and for god's sake adjust the thermostat, buy a fan for the summer and a sweater for the winter.
Thanks for the information. The one I was looking at was Hy-Tech in Florida. They have lots of claims and say they developed the product together with NASA for use on spacecraft. It seems the roof coatings would be the best way to go, to reflect the radiant energy from the sun. I know out attic gets blazing hot in the summer due to the radiant energy absorbed. Trying to find out more, however.
I have stapled aluminum coated kraft paper (I used paper coated on both sides) to rafters with good, and economic, effects (assuming labor is free or cheap).
Alan
Since a thin film like paint can't stop thermal conduction the only real effect it can have is on radiation. It is convenient to divide that into two wavelength bands, shortwave (visable, and near infrared), which for our application would be sunlight, and longwave, infrared at say 5-25 microns. This later can be considered as radiant heat.
The simplest low tech thing to do would be to use light colored paint (note about half of incoming solar is near infrared, so your eye may not be the best judge). This would reduce the direct heating from the sun. The effect could be significant, as we seem to have a foolish preference for dark colored roofs.
The infrared area is trickier. A non-reflective (in the IR) surface will cool quicker, essentially at a given wavelength reflectivity, and emissivity are inversely related (E=1-A). If some of the infrared wavelengths have a nontrivial mean-free path (how far on average a photon travels before being absorbed). Since radiative barriers, such as aluminum foil have been recommended for years, there must be at least some wavelengths with significant mean-free path in common insultaing materials. In this case I suspect that a layer of foil would do at least as much good, as that paint coating. Depending upon cost that might be a better solution.
If you want a somewhat dark color for say roofing, then some high tech coating that is reflective of the roughly half of the solar input in the infrared might be helpful. I believe that is what has been done in California where tile roofing is the modern norm, and light colored roofing has not yet caught on. Out here away from the coast you can count on summers being 99plus percent cloud free, and any reduction in solar heating would be significant.
You might want to take a look at the spam module (http://drupal.org/project/spam). It's helped me keep the spam under control on my sites.