![]() | Estimating the World Production Decline Rates from the Megaproject Forecasts | The Oil Drum | DrumBeat: November 20, 2007 | ![]() |
190 comments on WSJ Article - Oil Officials See Limit Looming on Production
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190 comments on WSJ Article - Oil Officials See Limit Looming on Production
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Even if we wanted to do it, it's not possible. The guy who cried wolf, in the view of the WSJ and rest of the MSM is Colin Campbell. How are we supposed to muzzle him?
See, the whole 'boy who cried wolf' analogy actually has no part to play in this debate about peak dates.
That boy cried wolf because he was bored.
Lets replay the story, only this time the boy cried wolf because he thought maybe he saw a wolf, or smelt a wolf, or saw the sheep come running as though there was a wolf.
If it weren't for Colin Campbell, would TOD and general Peak Oil awareness be anywhere like where they are now.
Those who advocate avoiding predictions, just incase they come to early, are like some sheep-herder who hangs on until he's quite sure whether its a wolf or just a wild dog killing the herd before running to get the townsfolk.
I'd FAR rather be seen as a crackpot by the ignorant-to-date, and find myself prepared when the inevitable arrives, than worry that the ignorant might choose to see me as a crackpot because they're not broadminded enough to realise that someone yelling wolf isn't necessarily just relieving boredom just 'cos the wolf isn't immediately visible when they go to look.
Pitt, to my mind the argument you make is just totally irrational - and dangerous. Thank whatever we thank for the likes of Colin Campbell for getting us here, today.
[rant over - that ones been building for a while]
[]edit - I retract 'dangerous' - because I don't think those who are saying 'stop making predictions' are actually going to have any effect on those who do]]
--
Jaymax (cornucomer-doomopian)
Hey, thanks, Jaymax. We needed this. A lot.
Don't forget that the boy who cried wolf was eventually right, and the entire town suffered for it. I have never been sure of the moral of that story-- did the townspeople mess up by not responding because they thought that the effort of running to the field twenty times outwieghed the damage to the flock? Of course not. The townspeople fell prey to the same base human flaws that the shepard did. The mature townspeople should have appointed at least a committee to run out each time, or hired a better shepard.
Those who do not read fairy tales are condemned to relive them, said the princess late one sleepless night, while searching for the pea.
It's all very reinterpreting the analogy to your own ends, but:
IOW, do not raise false alarms, as you will lose credibility. Therefore this analogy applies exactly.
This is exactly what some PO adherents have done, and now the WSJ says they have lost credibility. Some surprise, huh?
Anyway, the horse has already bolted. Now that the WSJ are on board with the idea of a plateau, work with them. Get them to ask where future supplies will come from and how much they will cost. Point out that developing alternative energy sources may be a business opportunity.
Probably.
Peak oil didn't become even remotely mainstream until prices shot up and oil supplies were obviously tight. Rapidly rising prices - especially to the psychologically-important $100/inflation-adjusted high level - would get people talking about the difficulties involved with producing oil and possible future problems with or without any particular person pushing the issue.
Has his work in bringing attention to the issue outweighed the reputation for making false predictions he's associated with it? Hard to say.
What use do predictions of a particular peak date serve?
The issue is how producing oil is becoming harder and harder, and satisfying rapidly-growing demand (especially from BRIC nations) will become increasingly difficult. Predicting a particular year for when "slow increase" becomes "slow decrease" is largely irrelevant to that central issue.
If all you care about is yourself being prepared, why bother discussing it at all?
If you care about society being prepared, then how your message is being received is of central importance.
Then your mind is mistaken.
My argument is explicitly rational - I'm saying that the costs (credibility) and benefits (attention?) of making predictions of a particular peak date need to be taken into account to determine whether it's something we should be doing or supporting, and that evidence suggests it's more harmful than helpful. I could certainly be mistaken, of course, and I'm more than open to the possibility that such predictions are more valuable than being repeatedly wrong is harmful.
Mostly, I'd just like to see some more people doing that kind of evaluation of what is useful behaviour. If you believe certain behaviour - such as predicting peak dates - is useful, you should be able to explain why it's useful and why its drawbacks are worth it, just as you should be able to explain the strengths and weaknesses of any argument you support.
Your argument is only rational if you manage to twist historical reality to an absurd degree in order to make it so... You're 'probably' comment re Colin Campbell seems ludicrously false beyond my comprehension.
We are unlikely to come to any agreement on this.
To answer your challenge: Peak oil going mainstream has a solid pre-prepared resource, including the likes of TOD, which only exists BECAUSE of individuals who wern't afraid to make predictions which turned out to be wrong in detail, but who's basis for those predictions was shown to be mostly robust under analysis.
The downside to society from those predictions is virtually non-existent, the benefits have given us several years advance preparation for society. But you will refuse to see that historical reality; why I'm not sure.
You should be able to explain what would be different had those predictions NOT been made - perhaps you think that society would give 'us' more credit, would be 'buying into' peak-oil theory more readily; but 'us' would not even exist, and the Saudi pronouncements on 'peak-oil' would be going unchallenged.
--
Jaymax (cornucomer-doomopian)
Disavowal.
If someone is doing something that reflects badly on a group, and that group does not take pains to distance itself from that person, it's assumed he or she is representative of the group, fair or unfair as that may be.
In this particular case, it might be helpful to see peak oil folk explain why predictions of a specific peak date miss the point, especially in response to media throwing attention at those predictions. Additionally important, though, is to not actively engage in that kind of obsessing over peak dates and predictions - and, unfortunately, doing so is pretty common. People need to not harp on about peak dates, and to stop lionizing those who do so - even though that group includes most of the big names of peak oil.
Fundamentally, a particular peak date only really matters if you expect production to fall off a cliff right afterwards, and - honestly - that's a pretty silly expectation given the broad range of world production. Absent that, the difference between "up 0.3%" and "down 0.3%" is fairly negligible: both are going to result in higher prices, demand destruction, substitution, and increased interest in alternatives.
Crying wolf and predicting or calling a peak may be great for getting attention, but at the cost of diverting attention - and credibility - away from the basic problem of demand outstripping supply. It's not easy to argue against both those who underplay the problem and those who overplay it, but it's important to do so in order for the problem to be seen as it truly is, and to be dealt with maximally efficiently and minimally painfully.
I think that's silly. ASPO, Simmons, Deffeyes, etc., are the ones getting the press, not us. They can disavow us. We can't disavow them. It sure won't "muzzle" them.
We've done that. I don't think it's really useful. People don't care, and it just comes across like 20-20 hindsight.
I could not disagree more. Like Tom Whipple said - nobody cares unless you can give them a date. The first thing they ask him on Capitol Hill when he talks about peak oil is "When?"