325 comments on DrumBeat: November 26, 2007
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325 comments on DrumBeat: November 26, 2007
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I'm in the midst of getting a geothermal heat pump installed. We're not doing the trench thing. We're going to run the loops vertically.
It's pretty pricey to retrofit an existing home. It is probably going to cost us around 25K USD to do the whole thing. At current energy costs, the payback time is going to be around 15 years. That's a big chunk of change and a long payback time for most people, especially considering that a lot of people don't plan on being in their house in 15 years. For new construction, however, it is a no-brainer.
Of course, "current energy costs" is the operative phrase. I'm actually expecting the thing to pay for itself in 5 years or so.
These costs are screwed up.
Three years ago I installed a Florida brand 4 ton geo-thermal heat pump in my log house. It cost me about $2200 or less for the unit.
The only other cost was to run some 1" PVC from the incoming water line in the basement. I ran the output down a line I had set long ago for gray water...it goes down a holler right behind the house and seeps back down into the aquifer, over time...this feed a creek where springs come out further down..
owever that loghouse has not been sold at auction and I have moved into smaller living quarters here on my land and h
lost of springs off this aquifer(or water bearing strata) all over this area..so the water runs out on the ground and I don't feel that I am drawing down the aquifer(or seam).
I could rather have installed another line back to the wellhead and dumped the output there back into my well.
Rather I intended to later borrow a buddies back hoe and lay my own ground loops..probably at a cost of less than $1,000.
The unit is super efficient and has a lot of builtin safeguards. I also had it loaded with heat strips in case of the well going out. The heat strips never ever come on unless someone pushes the thermostat up more than 4 degrees.
It cools and heats my 4500 sq ft log house fine...the basement not needing any cooling or heating as I find it comfortable just as it is.
Note: The 4500 sq ft includes the basement which is not finished living area.
I do agree that in suburbia that a geothermal is not usually going to work. Not enough space and most on city water hookup. If everyone went to using wellwater in a given area then perhaps they might create problems with the supply unless you dump it back in.
The best solution is to build in a area which has flowing spring creeks which you could dam up and lay coils in that would feed the heat exchanger in the heatpump. Or perhaps a nearby cave. A pond might also work if deep enough. Lay the pipe down in the bottom before you close the dam. The last pond I built only cost me for the dozer work ..about $400 back in the late 80s. If you have the land a box blade and front loader on a good sized tractor could do the job.Say 80 hp diesel or up.
airdale
PS. Note that I did all the install work myself. It was not that hard. I have worked on a/c and heatpumps in the past,replacing compressors,pulling vacumn,etc..but this unit was all selfcontained and far far simpler. Running pvc is simple as well...but copper in 8 ga and heavier has gone up tremendously in price...I put it on two circuit breakers..one is 60a and the heat strips on a 50a...
I use an amp-probe to measure the current and in normal run mode I pull about 15 to 20 on each leg. Once the biomass of the wood logs absorb the heat or cool...the environment remains very very stable and the unit runs very infrequently. Not like in a interior made of drywall. I also used nothing but Andersen windows in the house for high energy efficiency.
Wow. I think I may have made a strategic error in my heating.
I'm currently in the process of replacing my oil-fired boiler with a wood-pellet boiler, which will cut my heating bill in half and pay for itself in 6 to 8 years (even) at current prices.
I eliminated the idea of geothermal, because it seemed ill-adapted to retrofitting an old stone farmhouse (low temperature water not suitable for the existing radiators). But I was concentrating on ground-loop systems... and my property is rotten with springs. Including one which runs right under the house and takes my sewage away (more or less... but that's another, unsavoury story).
I will try to understandd more of what you wrote, Airdale, because there is probably something fairly easy and cheap that I can do with a heat pump...
But it will probably wait a year or two, I suspect the tech will be more widely available then.
COOL TUBE - Low-tech Geothermal Option
It can be hard to find much info on it, but my family built a house in the White Mts in Western Maine around 1980, and included a 'Cool Tube' in the design, whereby the 4" PVC Drainpiping that surrounded the foundation a bit below the frost-line (about 50" around here) had a spur added to it that went a ways off (50'?) and emerged as an Air Intake, (with squirrel-screen on it and a j-turn to keep rain out..) while another spur came into the house and up through the slab near the kitchen plumbing lines, so that air drawn in by the house's natural convection was brought up from the winter temps into the 40-45 degree range by it's long travel through the submerged drains before entering the house.
This provided an oxygen-rich air supply at a decent temp, which is very helpful in a home that relies on any kind of combustion-based heating. It also can balance out the negative pressure that draws excessive COLD winter air in any crack, or anytime a door or window is opened, even momentarily.
A small fan can be added to help create a Positive Pressure from the Cool Tube to further defeat any Infiltration. This system also helps in the Summer, bringing nice cool and fresh air into the home, and keeping leaks from allowing the Hot Ambient Air in.. though some systems and warmer regions need to be more careful about condensation and hence, Mold Issues.
I'm eager to try a "Cool Tube" retrofit in my In-town 1850 bldg Basement, where the Heat Exchange will use the stone walls/foundation perimeter to bring up the temps of the frigid winter air..
I've still got more insulation going on right now.. but I'm hoping I can get a roughed in test for this going this winter, as well as the 'Winter Fridge', which is a simple (!?) Heatexchanger using Antifreeze, Propylene Glycol to grab some Winter Cold and Help my fridge stay cool while it lives absurdly inside a house that I'm paying to keep WARM..
Hopeful in the face of multiple Ironies!
Bob Fiske
Excellent work, Bob. Any performance data or other specifics to share would be useful to others.
IMO, GHPs have evolved to compete with traditional HVAC systems, but are still very costly right now in comparison to air-exchange heat pumps or oil and gas heaters and electric A/C.
Nonetheless, a fundamental resource is the near-constant temperature thermal reservoir below 10 ft or so from the surface. More novel designs and work to use this (renewable) resource would have Hugh benefits during the time when FFs become scarce and grossly expensive and the time when solar/wind (or nuclear, regrettably) become the dominant source of energy supply.
Adaptation. It’s in the genes. Well, for some of us.
They might work depending on your climate. but to say they 'compete' is flat out wrong. come back and claim that when one can get one installed for a couple thousand dollars. 27-30k is way too much.
compete means to do what conventional HVAC systems do. I mentioned they are expensive, but on a life-cycle cost basis GHPs and conventional systems are often within 25%, and price competitive for new construction.
I also mentioned they are expensive at the current prices for FFs. The energy savings will tip the cost balance when FF prices double or more.
My point was to suggest with some experimentation, there are likely ways to tap the below-ground thermal reservoir suitable for one's local climate, and bypass the high current costs for closed loop systems. And Bob above was pointing out one.
Why would you expect something that could save you close to $2000 a year (at current energy prices) would have to be "installed for a couple thousand dollars"? Given where energy prices are headed, it is my old electric AC plus heating oil that can't compete with geothermal.
People really need to start taking a longer-range view of things. The days of cheap energy are coming to an end. The cost of doing something about home energy consumption is only going to go up, as is the cost of not doing something.
We're stuck on 'Cheap, Fast, Easy' solutions.. People do keep whining that Alt Energy installations are expensive. Yes, they are, and soon, so will everything be..
My Mom told me about a Music Student with a Russian Teacher, and the student complained that the piece He'd been assigned was hard.. and the teacher excitedly came back with 'Good! Hard is Good!' Words to live by!
Of course, sometimes cheap is good, if you aren't embarrassed by thinking you've been 'cheap'.. Part of the mode of thinking we have to challenge in 'rich-minded' places is that it's not necessarily a form of failure when you economize.. put a patch on your clothes, wear sweaters in a colder house, cook more on Monday and reheat leftovers during the week, grab that half-roll of insulation off the sidewalk trash heap and tighten up your home with it. (you just found $4 on the street!!) Be seen biking where 'normal' people drive.. We have a lot of foolish pride in the way of some of these habit-changes..
Bob
what he said...
Jeff
thirded
good comment - i keep trying to break the STBE-wife out of this mindset.... stil she'd prefer to buy new and throw away so that her friends think we're loaded with money instead of flat broke
STBE-wife (?) Sorry, I'm being slow today..
Space Transportation Booster Engine (NASA). That's some wife! ;o)
Soon To Be Ex
Someone had a fancy accountant word for this concept - I said I wanted a wind turbine, they said "not cost effective", I said "very cost effective when its the only source of power". Something [minimum] was the phrase ...
We build datacenters and telco central offices to withstand power outages. I'd like to have a home done to the same standard and I'd like it to be prepped for long periods of standalone time.
Most of you are very wealthy; I can tell because you actually have yards.
The vast majority of Americans are living in barracks-like apartment buildings or rented places and have NO jurisdiction over how things are done.
The result is the energy-saving gadgetry I see in the houses of the wealthy, and the huge energy and water waste I see in the dwellings of the vast majority.
The wealthy will have neato water-shut-off shower heads, the poor will have antiquated tubs with added on showers that are tricky as hell to not get icy-cold or blazing hot, and once set, there's a strong incentive to not mess with the thing - so the water blasts all through the shower. Hell it's even that way here - the owner of this place has a nice easy on/off thing, I just have to blast it. I try to compensate by taking less showers lol.
The wealthy can grow veggies on their lawns, the vast majority of us can't do that, no lawns at all or at best a large shared space, a few pots of veggies may be possible on a patio, but they'll get stolen. So the Safeway or the Supermercado are where we get our veggies, 1000's of transport miles in your salad anyone?
I think it's great that you guys are doing all this neat heat pump stuff, but for the vast majority of Americans, if The Landlord has a heater that runs on whale-oil, that's what you use.
Two-thirds of Americans own rather than rent.
Though I expect that to be changing, perhaps by a lot.
The more cost sensitive are probably corralled in that one third who rent, so the ones most in need are, as always, the ones least capable of making changes for a variety of reasons.
Own with lots or just own? Are condominiums and owned apartments included in that?
I assume that counts condos. But most are single detached (i.e., single family houses). Some census data here.
Also found this map interesting:
http://www.danter.com/statistics/ho2005.pdf
The urban areas really pull the home ownership stats down. In the middle of the country, home ownership is 70%, even 75% or more. I would assume there aren't many condos there.
I thought the banks actually own quite a large proportion of the houses ... and that's the problem, because people can't afford the interest payments let alone the capital repayments? ... No?
Just because it is a detached single family home, does not mean there is enough yard for a heat pump, garden, etc. I was wandering through a subdivision under construction a couple of years back, which were eventually put on the market at $700,000. You could, uh, spit out your window and hit your neighbor's house. There might have been enough room to drive a car between them. Maybe.
That's true. But you could put solar panels on the roof, install insulation, insulated windows, energy-efficient appliances, etc., which apartment dwellers can't do.
Those almost new homes may need an energy retrofit with rapidly rising energy prices, I would think someday soon, utility expenses could rival the mortgage payment on poorly insulated homes, at least in winter months.
Anecdotal Evidence
(I doo so love anecdotal - often more real than graphs and charts)
Or
Conversations at the edge of a dying civilisation....
I rang my sister in law tonight while my wife was out (dont read too much into that...) I wanted her opinion of the new CGI film of Beowulf (Crap, but since we had to translate from Anglo Saxon in Eng Lit Classes we both have a dog in the fight.)
Then it went to 'life , the universe and everything' type talk.
They went to Florida for a Holiday at half term. She was excited. LOTS of big properties going cheap, cheaper than last year, and what with the cheap dollar, this was the cheapest holiday they have had for a long time. Cheaper than France, cheaper than Spain.
She said Houses were on the market cheap and the owners even threw in an SUV with the sale.
Let me repeat that:
''and the owners even threw in an SUV with the sale''.
Distress sales.
Big time.
She mentioned the water shortage.
I said dont buy into Florida. (I put her off Spain a couple of years ago).
I said imagine Florida with water rationing and electricity blackouts with no AC.
This girl is no fool. Always on the lookout for the next money maker, she and her husband are an order of magnitude wealthier than me. But she is no fool and a short conversation about Florida turned her from 'buy' to 'walk away from the mess'.
Closer to home: 'how is business?' I asked.
In the space of a two week holiday, she came back to her Northern English , rich, commuter town to find out that 5 of her friend's husbands had been canned. All were in senior positions in Accounting, Marketing and similar.
All within two weeks. All were surprised.
She works as an Estate Agents (Real Estate).
She is good.
She could sell a caveman's cave back to the caveman.
She says ''before I went (to Florida) we were moving a 100 sales a week.''.
''Last week we moved 29''.
Take your partners for the ELP Square-dance.
Hmmm ... I walk into town most days ( it saves petrol and keeps me fit!) on the way I pass loads of houses that are for sale and nothing seems to sell. Or, if it does sell 'subject to contract' it soon comes back on the market 'cos the 'chain' has broken somewhere.
Oh dear! I hope it's just the time of year and sales will pick up again in the spring!
'Best hopes' ... as Alan would say.
'Don't hold your breath' ... as I would say.
i like anecdotal too - usually shot down in the short term and born out in the long
i don't know if anyone else is job hunting right now - it is NOT pretty out there - boards are full of junk-jobs (you know the scam job ads) which basically talk more to the distress of the employer not being able to offer real jobs, and to the number of people who must be looking thereby attracting the outright scammers
this economy is in tatters right now - only denial is holding things back
the old adage about if you are still employed (knock on wood) it's just a recession whereas if you're looking, it's a depression.
FYI, I have a family member in the finance/accounting business that's looking and dittos your observation that it's gotten brutal out there.
Hope you find something soon.
Citigroup looking to layoff 45,000 staffers.
Getting to be time to find a port, maybe any port.
Do you have any evidence to support that? ;-)
Yes, my experience is that the job situation in natural resources--say forestry-related--has gotten ugly, too. Recently talked with a forester for the Oregon Department of Forestry, and he said that the response to entry-level positions (Technician-level) has been phenomenal in recent months. Not just the huge number of applicants, but also the qualifications of the applicants were unprecedented (qualified for much higher positions). He's been with the ODF for over two decades. I've heard similar comments from people at the Washington Department of Natural Resources, too. Just a couple more anecdotes to add to the rest.
-best,
graywulffe in CVO, OR
You shouldn't have put her off Spain. It would have been a better investment than anything she's bought in the US since then. Climate change notwithstanding, Spain will be in a better position than most of the US.
Spain housing is a large pile of animal origin NPK fertilizer in terms of valuations. Can't speak to the climate there, but you said "investment" and its all Florida condos in terms of behavior now :-(
Any idea how many are living in the barracks-like holding tanks or apartments and condos? Owned or unowned? How about the suburbs -- Zoning and code, I think, tend to be easier the higher up the feeding chain one goes.
For intellectual interest alone I watched Victoria Beckham on TV house buying and after clinically observing the drop in her décolletage for a bit noticed the house she was looking at had a cement patio with no railing and a very dramatic drop over the edge. No code I know would let that pass without a buck to grease those railings away.
I think fleam has some valid points.
I get the idea our government will do everything in its power to keep most Americans "owning" a home. That wey they know where we are - and where to expect the annual tax remittance.
Knock out our homes and our employment, and its gonna be fun trying to find anyone who owes money.
How difficult for business would it be if we were in a position where we were all "rolling stones - every place we laid our hat was our home"? Credit? Forget it - Barter across the barrel head or no business done. Social Security numbers? Why? The system is bankrupt. If you want me to do this, give me that.
How do you keep the masses in line if you can't threaten to confiscate their stuff - if they don't have any?
Its gonna be hell living in a nation of "housing projects".
I can see a helluva lot of humanity having lifestyles resembling that of feral cats if we crash our economic system.
It has its good side and bad sides.
Good side - No Taxes! No Payments Due!
Bad side - Lots of violence. Few creature comforts.
This is why I feel the FED has no choice but to try to inflate our currency, so we can keep as many people in their homes as possible, even if it means business must again hire the American worker because outsourcing would mean a nasty currency valuation hit.
of course those figures skew high in the age range right? so there are many many 20-30somethings that are in the rent not own space, and those are the ones that really have the most need to be able to do something for the future
Or you are forced to use what you can afford at the time. For example my mother still lives in the house i grew up in but there is no way she can afford to plunk down 23-30k for something that will only save her 2k a YEAR.
Niether can I afford the 25K. They have special payment plans with one of the big banks, below prime rates. But that just puts off the payback time. So it's either pay all now or pay all later. 2 things make putting in a GSHP palatable. The $9K in government grants and the fact that I'm cashing in the rest of my RRSPs. There's 2 ways to look at it. If the market crashes that money will evaporate anyway. If heating costs go through the roof then my RRSP's will be needed to pay for that. So might as well cash it in now for the savings and comfort down the road.
Richard Wakefield
Well Fleam, you're right, and you're wrong.
I am rich, and I am poor. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in-between. Most people own some stuff, but never as much stuff as the 'truly Wealthy'.. we are all paying for energy, and there are at least SOME options for most people to economize and become less dependent on buying fuel, electricity. I was a renter for a long time, and know that there are precious few options. Up here in Maine, more renters are paying their own heat. We have a 3-unit building, and we still provide the Heat/HotWater for the whole building. We have great people in our two apts, and they are watchful about open windows, leaks, etc.. They know that energy is a quickly growing problem, and we've been frank about possibly switching over to everyone covering their own heat, which may give them more reason to look for additional efficiencies.
When I rented in NYC, I started thinking about the 'Winter Fridge' idea, since I did pay my own electricity, and just outside my window there was plenty of cold air that could help make my Fridge cheaper to keep cold. I did do the Compact Fluorescent thing, and was of course a 'Straphanger' and avid pedestrian, which is at least possible in NY. I also grew plants in my back windows, though not foods, and it would have been a pretty minor crop.
Anyway, there are a lot of messages of powerlessness that poison a great many peoples' minds in this country, and so they keep getting into the truck and just trying to get to work on time, whether it's from a rental or their own house and yard. My wife's boss, a nice guy who bikes to work in crazy weather, but comes from what I see as 'The Rich Neighborhoods', he is really excited by my projects and ambitions, and wants to get 'the tour'. He has more resources than we do, but he's inspired that I am taking at least a bit of an initiative to find some original solutions.
I'm already 'converted', I'm a believer in the need and opportunity to enact some changes.. and I have materials to build some projects with, a shop in my dusty/moldy but Rich Basement.. and still it's a real bitch to get as much forward progress as I'd like on these things.
I know you resent the Rich people.. and so do I, and so do they. But frankly, there are people (in small percentages) at all levels who are building things, investing some of their precious money or time, and trying to get the word out.
Best,
Bob Fiske
Jokuhl - I know what the stats say, that 2/3 of americans own and have it great, and then I know what I've seen over my lift - most of us in what amounts to holding cells.
Out here where I am is almost decent. Still too close to the big cities, but closer to the ideal. There's a lot more freedom, read God Guts and Guns country, it's great. But I think the true Midwest, places from Youngstown to Flint to so on, is where the real ELP revolution is going to happen.
But one can live "feral" anywhere, all that kept me from "guerrilla gardening" which is just plant stuff here and there, chard and chives and sweet potatoes, etc was that I was too busy all the time in the Bay Area.
We will all be "feral" in the Gov't's eyes if we're bartering, growing stuff, living in houses we build ourselves on land that's paid for, helping each other out, and on paper making very little $$ but living "richly". That's the ideal. I'll take feral, Amish if you like, living over the gov't regulated Oligarch-owned holding pens any time.
fleam,
You are conflating "owning" with "having it great".
Some of us own ("own"), but barely hang on, and make do without a lot of things simply in order to hang on. I know a lot of people who are, like me, land poor. I will not be installing any fancy heat pumps or photovoltaic panels, I can assure you.
However, I can get my firewood from my woods here. I guess that's pretty nice. Except my back hurts.
So it goes.
sgage,
As does my back ache once or twice a year, but the heat is dry and warms more than the body. I have a simple no frills wood stove rated 70% efficiency , that's more than I can say about any other way of heating. Other than cleaning the chimney and in a long while replacing a bit of pipe, no need to worry about breakdowns. I can cook an egg on it or do a stew if need be and the ashes and carbon go straight to the garden in spring to grow my food. Heat pumps why bother if you have this better choice. Freedom from want and worry that is real wealth.
For anyone not to old at heart and wishing they weren't living in a holding tank I would suggest living on a boat. Lovely kind of life and with a bit of looking there is a boat for every budget. The first live aboard my wife of a year and I bought was at auction, a 34 ft double ender gill netter for 1200 dollars. It floated but needed work cleaning out fuel tanks, starting the engine a bit of caulking a dab of paint and a bunch of scrounging but all that that only cost labour and we owned that already. My wife and I had never owned a boat before and basically knew nothing about it other than we thought it would be fun, and it was. Much much better than the half a duplex we had been renting.
At 65 I think it might be fun to live that life again, there will be plenty of fine sailboats cheaply available soon, especially if we really hit an economic meltdown which is looking more possibly every day.
Feral lifestyle eh? I like that way of looking at it as that's what boat life is. Feral with capitals and bells on! Too bad I have a garden with fruit trees and nice things like that to tie me down.
The idea of living on a boat sounds very interesting, indeed! One of my brothers did it for a couple of years.
I've been heating with wood for many years, and love the kind of heat it puts out, and being able to cook on it, etc. Well worth a bit of soreness - I can say that now that my woodshed is full :-)
And the ashes are indeed good on the garden (in moderation - it can be overdone, especially for potatoes which like it a bit acid). I, too, have growing things tieing me down - not least of which is my love of my place. But I've got a horse, sheep, chickens, dogs, etc., as well.
But we're pretty feral around here...
I lived on a Tri for a while, but in a tropical environment.
I soon abandoned the idea, tore down a old house boat, restored a abandoned house in the jungle with a few comrades. Spear fished for barter, and a bit of cash.
I came home one day and one of my woman friends had installed human skull candle holders, left over remains from WWII.
We used kerosene for light and fuel.
Electricity was not a option.
Water from rainwater off the roof.
I guess you could consider that feral.
I now live in Mill Valley with a medium house rate value at 1.25 million.
I am renting.
But, the boat thing is a option, and the market will be good.
Sausalito is within walking distance, which is the home of the outlaw house boat.
i like the idea of living on a boat - but again costs come into play... they aren't cheap...
On the other hand, renters have the option of relocating closer to their places of employment, maybe even within walking or bike distance. Lots of homeowners are going to be locked in with unsellable homes.
You can at least use draft dogs to seal off your exterior doors, and make yourself removable insulating shutters for all the windows. That is very cheap and will save you a little. It is probably OK to change out the incandescent bulbs with CFLs, too.
Look around for a community garden. If there is none, talk to your county extension office - maybe some people in your area have been trying to start one. Another option: Look for homeowners in the area that have lawns without gardens that might be interested in some sort of sharecropping arrangements. Given the way food prices are going, I would bet that there are some elderly people on fixed incomes that are too feeble to start their own gardens but would be thrilled to let someone younger grow a garden on their land in exchange for some of the produce. Just work out something like a lease arrangement in writing so they can't cheat you once you've done all the hard work. This is a golden opportunity, yet hardly anyone is taking advantage of it.
Hey, at least whale oil is a renewable resource!
not if the Japanese and Norwegians have their way
Fleam,
Your living in the wrong part of the country.
You need to trek on out to the real outback..say Ozark Mountains...do a Google Earth on it..check out the national park areas..find the clear running spring fed streams. Find the population density.
Check it out. Why starve in a city? The fur bearing animals are not in the city. The ones that can be harvested for jerky and loin meat are not in the city. There is very little available firewood in the cities. The minimum wage is the same in a small nearby town. Cost of living is cheaper. A small 250 cc motorcycle will do for a vehicle. Cold in the winter but what the heck..we are talking surivival.
Rednecks? yes...learn to be a redneck, die your hair red and learn to dip snuff. Get some chickens and get with the program instead of grousing about whatifs!!! yes you will likely have to give up the internet.So?
Airdale-guineas make good watchdogs and eat well also.
A good meanass dog helps too. Dig a root cellar. and so on and so forth
Airdale that's largely what I'm doing right now.
Right next to national land. Watching 12 doves outside the window, yeah I've looked up dove recipes hehe. Not the fertile Ozarks but a lot more life out here than you'd think. Good well and running water not far away.
Plenty of firewood here. Chickens are next door hehe, I love that rooster! I haven't sprung chickens on the boss around here yet but give me time, I plan to be a regular farmin' fool as much as I can.
"The ocean is a desert with its life underground" this place is like a dry version of the ocean off the coast of Punaluu, Hawaii, the similarities are amazing. No real reason to starve, not really. Crasshoppers are our version of mole crabs, sparrows the counterpart of hinalea lauwili, doves and pigeons good stand-ins I get for weke moana, my all time favorite fish. Even kind of looks the same, so that I often imagine myself floating over the land while walking on it.
I'd rather raise guinea pigs than chickens but I'm not picky, I'm convinced squab is tasty too.
Rednecks, hell, you should see the truck I drive around in lol. Since I have the 250cc motorcycle now the khaki cargos have to go and Wranglers are in. Last pair I got were 50 cents, just have to hem 'em is all.
We don't need a meanass dog so much, my hearing's almost as good and I shoot better than most dogs lol.
No snuff for me, fortunately we're knee deep on Mormons so straightedge is cool.
No need to lose the net, computers along with everything else is cheap out here, I even have wireless highspeed due to some neighbor.
Yeah I'll keep the net for now, too many guitar lessons and such on there.
So on and so forth, I AM getting with the program!
And thanks for the thoughtful post.
Fleam, Glad to hear it..your doing good then.
Get a nice trade for the future. Say leathercraft or making pottery or shearing sheep or whatever.
Go find an oldtimer who does it and apprentice out part time to him..
I am guessing Utah then?
Good flowing water nearby is a Godsend.
Friable soil is great to have.
Chickens in the pot. Can't beat it.
Guitar is good but I prefer my banjo.
airdale
Yes Airdale you are right on Utah - part of Utah is kept in N. Arizona and that's where I am.
Banjo's cool, right now I have a guitar so that's what I have to work with. I could consider going into making picks and various guitar parts, do stuff like that which would be fun.
But losing my small biz, I dunno, I really feel uneasy learning something that can be taken away from me. Playing guitar OK, but anything that takes tools and a workshop can be, and I assume will be, taken away.
There were a lot of survivors who came out of Nazi Germany who didn't even have their own clothes on their backs, they had those ugly stripy uniforms and that was it. But we (the US) got a whole generation of cartoonists, entertainers, etc. when the ones with highly portable skills like that came here.
(And not with the US's blessing generally either - just as right now we're putting Saddam's enemies in Gitmo and keeping them there.)
You have to have a skill that will still work even if you do, and you will, lose EVERYTHING.
I love southern Utah. The coyotes are quite noisy at exit 204 on I-70 so I hold out until the ranch road at exit 108, then I throw down my ridge rest, my sleeping bag, and I enjoy the show overhead :-)
Good luck on making it in the music world. I've been around that scene for more than 30 years and even the really good guitar players have trouble making a living at it. It's said that some of the best guitar players in Nashville are the ones out on the street looking for spare change. Or, as the old saying in the music business goes; "Don't give up your day job".
Note of interest: I picked a bit last weekend with some professional Bluegrass folks. I can't begin to keep up with those guys, even though I've been trying to learn since high school. It ain't easy and one must contend with the occupational hazards of alcoholism and drug addiction. Worse, many of the best players are already at a professional level by the time they finish high school. For example, here's a kid that's already done a couple of CD's:
http://www.treyhensley.com/index.html
E. Swanson
Because your looking at it in the wrong angle. the average person will not be able to put up the up front 23-30+k cost of installing one even if it will save them money in the long run. for them it will be cheaper monitary wise to put up with the year on year incresse in costs of home heating while tring to converve what they can.
Unless the alternitive is at the same cost if not cheaper then what they have you are not going to get many people to get it even if it is much more efficent. It's like telling someone driving a junker and complaining about gas prices to go out and buy a tesla roadster.
AlistarC,
The first thing you have to know is DIY. Do It Yourself.
The contractors will bill you hugely. Yet the work is not that hard...You will have to cut in your old return sheetmetal duct ,which for me was just a sizing intermediate step with me getting a HVAC supply house to fab a new one with some
additional flex around the sides...and its very easy to do sheetmetal work on ducts.
I didn't have to alter the output ductwork at all. The install of the HP itself was not beyond the ability of any doityourselfer...who has a few handtools.
Wiring it in was a tad more work but I had capacity in my inside control panel to use one of the old circuit breakers and add one more new one..costs about $30 apiece and about $80 for the copper wiring.
About $40 for new PVC piping. I put pads under the bottom of the cabinet. Cabinet was about 2 ft x 2 ft in size and about 4 feet high..mostly for the fan.
My unit has switchable fan speeds and other controls. I wired up a new programmable thermostat..it has to be a 4 stage unit..to allow the heat strips to kick in if need be.
Then one stage for cooling. I got it at the supply house where I knew the manager anyway.
No charging of freon..its all self contained. I already had access to an outside gray water drain (DWV-is the type I had and it was about 3 inches in diameter..
The well already had a 1 hp pump and a 100 gallon tank..you can't get by with a 20 or 30 gallon tank.
But if I was doing it over I would put in a set of ground loop coils and then have a backup and could switch to either the well or the ground loop or else redig a new line to the well to dump the output back down the well..probably the best and cheapest idea except that the current draw by the well pump will add to the cost of heating and cooling and i hate to run a wellpump any more than necessary but mine has been running fine for all this time...
It was an easy refit since I already had a very old split unit heat pump from when I built the house.
The new heatpump had a nice 'scroll' compressor which beats the older style compressors easily. Supposed to be very longlived and much more efficient.
The secret is again DIY. Of course I built the loghouse and even did the dirt work myself so I was not afraid to tackle anything. And no codes to bother with where I live. Here you can do all your own electrical work on your own house..but for some ..like outside on the load center and setting new meters..you must get a small inspection so the electric utility is happy.
airdale
Forgot to add..you want a flow control out the outside dump line right at the output of the inside heatpump..this allows you to adjust the gpm rate and it also handles the startup and shutdown flow of water. What you don't want is the rest of the plumbing to suffer each time the heatpump kicks on.
I had a 1 inch supply coming in an a hefty well and had no problems with that. If you use a well then you need to know your gpm rating of the wellpump.
With ground loops ..just a small inline pump.
... so if I installed a heat pump from ground water, and retro-fitted an air duct system to the house (that would be fun/hell to do), the heating system would sit idle most of the time... sounds good to me.
The house has never needed cooling, however (except in the euro heat wave of 2003, which may turn out to be an annual event, so...)
This is a timely discussion for me, because I have been looking into this. I am guessing that heat exchange with water is crucial, correct? I spoke with someone who thought you just ran the pipes into the ground, but I couldn't see you getting much heat transfer that way.
But sometimes I wonder if it might not be more cost effective to just build a house that is half buried. For those of you have a basement in a warm-weather location, does the basement stay cool when it is hot outside? Or does the heat end up saturating the basement as well? I am trying to think of a cooling solution in a warm-weather climate that does not involve air conditioning.
http://www.heathershome.info/
This was a 2,000 square foot demonstration project, built for about $120 per square foot, excluding land costs. Estimated total utility costs year round are estimated, at current prices, to be about $50 per month.
Humidity control is a key issue. And tolerance for more temperature swings that typical today.
Think 95 F outside temperature, 83 F dewpoint after a shower the night before, and inside temperature of 80 F.
Each climate & area has it's own optimum solution.
The surface are of a long pipe is surprisingly large.
Best Hopes for Engineers :-)
Alan
Water needed? No, not correct. And if you've got to go vertical because of limited land, the best situation is to be sitting on solid rock since drilling costs are lower.
We live in a continental climate zone: hot, often muggy, summers, cold winters. In the past before I superinsulated the house, we would run the forced air system drawing cool air from the basement and circulate it through the main and second floors of our house. Our basement stays in the 58 degree F. range year round, though if it was not so well insulated, it would drop to a lower temperature in the winter.
Water table & humidity are key factors.
Google solar chimneys and if you decide on AC check out http://www.coolerado.com/.
I live in a place with hot humid summers (Kansas City). The basement is cooler in the summer than the outside air. Not cold enough to refrigerate food, but cool enough to exist in. With the addition of a dehumidifier (while we still have electricity), the basement is quite pleasant. Before airconditioning became common our neighbor with the dehumifier in the basement was the most popular kid on the block in the summer time. Conversely, the basement is quite a bit warmer than air temperature in the winter.
Or does the heat end up saturating the basement as well?
In New Orleans, the "humidity" ends up saturating our "basements' (AKA swimming pools). That is why we "bury" our dead aboveground.
Best Hopes,
Alan
That is the effect of living in a flood plane.
Rather than fight the water, move to higher ground, or accept living in a swamp is temporary.
What others say here about humidity is important. I've built a couple of earth-berm houses in Western NC, US, and they work well in that climate as long as the humidity issue is dealt with by thorough waterproofing and ample summer ventlation.
Earth berming could probably work well in most climates as long as water/humidity issues were worked out, but is better suited to some. The high desert that covers much of the American West IMO would probably be the ideal for either earth-berm or totally underground. The naturally large temperature swings would be moderated by the earth and ground water would not be such an issue.
What others say here about humidity is important.
I always wondered why there were no basements in Oklahoma where I grew up. I guess now I know. But I suppose if you can manage the humidity, a house with a basement and some sleeping quarters would make a good place to escape sweltering summers (and probably could serve as a tornado shelter).
There have been numerous approaches to solving the home heating/cooling problem. Basements tend to add a bit to the cost of a house and in an area with a high water table or frequent flooding, they can be a real problem. If you have a site with a south facing hill, you might consider a totally underground house with passive solar heating on the exposed south wall. When the roof is covered with a meter (3 ft) or more of dirt, the thermal mass effect cuts the heating load considerably and then it's cool in summer. The cost of the walls, reinforced roof and waterproofing might be a bit steep though. The newer systems using insulated concrete walls which result in a thick layer of insulation and an easy to build wall offer many options. I built an 8 foot tall wall section built to hold back a cut into a hill and it appears to be working out well, both structurally and thermally.
Some folks I know built a house built into a cliff with several floor levels. The top floor and roof were above ground. As always, when building a solar house, the design begins with proper site selection. Building a solar heated structure in a city of high rises will be a problem, as continued access to sunlight may not be guaranteed. Good zoning laws which limit structure heights would help, but I doubt we'll see that sort of rational planning until things become really difficult and solar access rights become mandatory.
E. Swanson
The problem is that no one builds to the enviroment anymore using local materials.
Robert, I bet the lack of basements in OK is the same reason they are scarce in Texas... solid rock not too far under the precious think layer of topsoil. I wondered the same thing about why no basements or in-ground pools when I lived in the Texas hill country. I was told by a builder that it was possible but it took a lot of blasting and serious digging equipment that cost much more than anyone wanted to pay. Hell, I even had trouble digging fence posts in the limestone there.
Water isn't necessary to the scheme. My well is 360 feet down, and I don't have a deep standing body of water nearby. Given that, my choices are (1) trenches that go out several hundred feet from the house at a depth of 3 or 4 feet, or (2) several vertical shafts. Either system circulates a refigerant through the "loop" to exchange heat with the ground. Rock isn't as good at heat transfer as water, but water isn't an option.
My basement stays pretty much the same temperature year round (68-70 degrees. It does have a tendency to get humid in the summer, as air with a dew point of 60-70 degrees is pulled in and cooled to near the dew point. I haven't given the matter much thought, but it would be nice to be able to pull drier air into the basement to feed the circulator. I suppose if I sealed the house better in the summer I'd mainly be recirculating air dried by the AC. But I try not to run the AC more than I have to, and I open the house up to keep it cool when I can.
I live in Northern Italy. Weather is cold in winter and hot in summer
(avg range -10C / +35C). Many old houses have a "cantina", an underground basement. Temperature in the summer stays at about 16/17C if two meter deep. In a deeper one (here considered "good") you get about 13/14C.
People keep salami hanged on the ceiling with strings and also keep there the home-produced wine, in bottles or in stainless steel barrels. It's sort of a natural refrigerator.
-1OC=14F
+35C=95F
+16C=60F
+13C=55F
Exactly, the upfront cost of a geo system is the major hurdle. We installed a vertical closed-loop system last year, at a cost of $27K; we had two estimates, and they weren't far apart. Several years ago, one could have no doubt had a system installed more cheaply, but energy and raw-materials costs have gone up a lot in the meantime. Plus, we're in the Maryland/suburban Washington, D.C. area, so everything is more expensive here. Another factor in pricing is that there often are only a handful of HVAC firms in a given area that install them.
Open-loop (well-water) systems are a lot less expensive than closed-loop systems, but closed-loop systems are more of a sure thing, so one isn't dependent on the vagaries of the groundwater supply.
Geo systems in suburbia are feasible, but on a typical quarter-acre / 10,000 sq.foot lot (like ours), one is pretty much limited to vertical closed-loop systems. Local jurisdictions also have siting restrictions on the location of the ground-loop wells: in Montgomery County (Md.), they have to be 30 feet from the house, 10 feet from the property line, and 10 feet from any buried utility lines.
I'm expecting the system to pay for itself in about ten years -- but it could be sooner, since what we replaced was a 32-year-old oil furnace.
law of receding horizons?
Which system? I'm getting a WaterFurnace system put in.
I think verticle is the logical way to go. It's what I'm doing next year. Putting in the verticle loops. It doesn't draw up groundwater (that's a no-no here, damn bylaws). But it sends glycol down in PVC piping. The cost is $25K and most of that cost is in the drilling 6 holes 200 ft down. Having a good water table is the best as it speeds recovery time of the coils.
Luckily here in Canada I also qualify for $9000 in provincial and federal grants. Nice!
Richard Wakefield
Our system has a single 600-foot well, a vertical closed loop with the Environol thermal-transfer fluid.
$9000 in Canadian government grants??? Wow -- that is really generous. Uncle Sam only gives out a chintzy $300 tax credit, ditto a similar tax credit with the state of Maryland. Maryland also has a $1000 geo system grant program, which we got, but I understand there's a limit to the number of grants they give out... Maybe Maryland should become a Canadian province...