thirded

good comment - i keep trying to break the STBE-wife out of this mindset.... stil she'd prefer to buy new and throw away so that her friends think we're loaded with money instead of flat broke

The more cost sensitive are probably corralled in that one third who rent, so the ones most in need are, as always, the ones least capable of making changes for a variety of reasons.

Own with lots or just own? Are condominiums and owned apartments included in that?

Anecdotal Evidence
(I doo so love anecdotal - often more real than graphs and charts)

Or

Conversations at the edge of a dying civilisation....

I rang my sister in law tonight while my wife was out (dont read too much into that...) I wanted her opinion of the new CGI film of Beowulf (Crap, but since we had to translate from Anglo Saxon in Eng Lit Classes we both have a dog in the fight.)

Then it went to 'life , the universe and everything' type talk.

They went to Florida for a Holiday at half term. She was excited. LOTS of big properties going cheap, cheaper than last year, and what with the cheap dollar, this was the cheapest holiday they have had for a long time. Cheaper than France, cheaper than Spain.

She said Houses were on the market cheap and the owners even threw in an SUV with the sale.

Let me repeat that:

''and the owners even threw in an SUV with the sale''.

Distress sales.

Big time.

She mentioned the water shortage.

I said dont buy into Florida. (I put her off Spain a couple of years ago).

I said imagine Florida with water rationing and electricity blackouts with no AC.

This girl is no fool. Always on the lookout for the next money maker, she and her husband are an order of magnitude wealthier than me. But she is no fool and a short conversation about Florida turned her from 'buy' to 'walk away from the mess'.

Closer to home: 'how is business?' I asked.

In the space of a two week holiday, she came back to her Northern English , rich, commuter town to find out that 5 of her friend's husbands had been canned. All were in senior positions in Accounting, Marketing and similar.

All within two weeks. All were surprised.

She works as an Estate Agents (Real Estate).

She is good.

She could sell a caveman's cave back to the caveman.

She says ''before I went (to Florida) we were moving a 100 sales a week.''.

''Last week we moved 29''.

Take your partners for the ELP Square-dance.

The vast majority of Americans are living in barracks-like apartment buildings or rented places and have NO jurisdiction over how things are done.

Any idea how many are living in the barracks-like holding tanks or apartments and condos? Owned or unowned? How about the suburbs -- Zoning and code, I think, tend to be easier the higher up the feeding chain one goes.

For intellectual interest alone I watched Victoria Beckham on TV house buying and after clinically observing the drop in her décolletage for a bit noticed the house she was looking at had a cement patio with no railing and a very dramatic drop over the edge. No code I know would let that pass without a buck to grease those railings away.

I think fleam has some valid points.

I get the idea our government will do everything in its power to keep most Americans "owning" a home. That wey they know where we are - and where to expect the annual tax remittance.

Knock out our homes and our employment, and its gonna be fun trying to find anyone who owes money.

How difficult for business would it be if we were in a position where we were all "rolling stones - every place we laid our hat was our home"? Credit? Forget it - Barter across the barrel head or no business done. Social Security numbers? Why? The system is bankrupt. If you want me to do this, give me that.

How do you keep the masses in line if you can't threaten to confiscate their stuff - if they don't have any?

Its gonna be hell living in a nation of "housing projects".

I can see a helluva lot of humanity having lifestyles resembling that of feral cats if we crash our economic system.

It has its good side and bad sides.
Good side - No Taxes! No Payments Due!
Bad side - Lots of violence. Few creature comforts.

This is why I feel the FED has no choice but to try to inflate our currency, so we can keep as many people in their homes as possible, even if it means business must again hire the American worker because outsourcing would mean a nasty currency valuation hit.

of course those figures skew high in the age range right? so there are many many 20-30somethings that are in the rent not own space, and those are the ones that really have the most need to be able to do something for the future

Niether can I afford the 25K. They have special payment plans with one of the big banks, below prime rates. But that just puts off the payback time. So it's either pay all now or pay all later. 2 things make putting in a GSHP palatable. The $9K in government grants and the fact that I'm cashing in the rest of my RRSPs. There's 2 ways to look at it. If the market crashes that money will evaporate anyway. If heating costs go through the roof then my RRSP's will be needed to pay for that. So might as well cash it in now for the savings and comfort down the road.

Richard Wakefield

Jokuhl - I know what the stats say, that 2/3 of americans own and have it great, and then I know what I've seen over my lift - most of us in what amounts to holding cells.

Out here where I am is almost decent. Still too close to the big cities, but closer to the ideal. There's a lot more freedom, read God Guts and Guns country, it's great. But I think the true Midwest, places from Youngstown to Flint to so on, is where the real ELP revolution is going to happen.

But one can live "feral" anywhere, all that kept me from "guerrilla gardening" which is just plant stuff here and there, chard and chives and sweet potatoes, etc was that I was too busy all the time in the Bay Area.

We will all be "feral" in the Gov't's eyes if we're bartering, growing stuff, living in houses we build ourselves on land that's paid for, helping each other out, and on paper making very little $$ but living "richly". That's the ideal. I'll take feral, Amish if you like, living over the gov't regulated Oligarch-owned holding pens any time.

not if the Japanese and Norwegians have their way

Airdale that's largely what I'm doing right now.

Right next to national land. Watching 12 doves outside the window, yeah I've looked up dove recipes hehe. Not the fertile Ozarks but a lot more life out here than you'd think. Good well and running water not far away.

Plenty of firewood here. Chickens are next door hehe, I love that rooster! I haven't sprung chickens on the boss around here yet but give me time, I plan to be a regular farmin' fool as much as I can.

"The ocean is a desert with its life underground" this place is like a dry version of the ocean off the coast of Punaluu, Hawaii, the similarities are amazing. No real reason to starve, not really. Crasshoppers are our version of mole crabs, sparrows the counterpart of hinalea lauwili, doves and pigeons good stand-ins I get for weke moana, my all time favorite fish. Even kind of looks the same, so that I often imagine myself floating over the land while walking on it.

I'd rather raise guinea pigs than chickens but I'm not picky, I'm convinced squab is tasty too.

Rednecks, hell, you should see the truck I drive around in lol. Since I have the 250cc motorcycle now the khaki cargos have to go and Wranglers are in. Last pair I got were 50 cents, just have to hem 'em is all.

We don't need a meanass dog so much, my hearing's almost as good and I shoot better than most dogs lol.

No snuff for me, fortunately we're knee deep on Mormons so straightedge is cool.

No need to lose the net, computers along with everything else is cheap out here, I even have wireless highspeed due to some neighbor.

Yeah I'll keep the net for now, too many guitar lessons and such on there.

So on and so forth, I AM getting with the program!

And thanks for the thoughtful post.