It can be hard to find much info on it, but my family built a house in the White Mts in Western Maine around 1980, and included a 'Cool Tube' in the design, whereby the 4" PVC Drainpiping that surrounded the foundation a bit below the frost-line (about 50" around here) had a spur added to it that went a ways off (50'?) and emerged as an Air Intake, (with squirrel-screen on it and a j-turn to keep rain out..) while another spur came into the house and up through the slab near the kitchen plumbing lines, so that air drawn in by the house's natural convection was brought up from the winter temps into the 40-45 degree range by it's long travel through the submerged drains before entering the house.
This provided an oxygen-rich air supply at a decent temp, which is very helpful in a home that relies on any kind of combustion-based heating. It also can balance out the negative pressure that draws excessive COLD winter air in any crack, or anytime a door or window is opened, even momentarily.
A small fan can be added to help create a Positive Pressure from the Cool Tube to further defeat any Infiltration. This system also helps in the Summer, bringing nice cool and fresh air into the home, and keeping leaks from allowing the Hot Ambient Air in.. though some systems and warmer regions need to be more careful about condensation and hence, Mold Issues.
I'm eager to try a "Cool Tube" retrofit in my In-town 1850 bldg Basement, where the Heat Exchange will use the stone walls/foundation perimeter to bring up the temps of the frigid winter air..
I've still got more insulation going on right now.. but I'm hoping I can get a roughed in test for this going this winter, as well as the 'Winter Fridge', which is a simple (!?) Heatexchanger using Antifreeze, Propylene Glycol to grab some Winter Cold and Help my fridge stay cool while it lives absurdly inside a house that I'm paying to keep WARM..
Hopeful in the face of multiple Ironies!
Bob Fiske
Excellent work, Bob. Any performance data or other specifics to share would be useful to others.
IMO, GHPs have evolved to compete with traditional HVAC systems, but are still very costly right now in comparison to air-exchange heat pumps or oil and gas heaters and electric A/C.
Nonetheless, a fundamental resource is the near-constant temperature thermal reservoir below 10 ft or so from the surface. More novel designs and work to use this (renewable) resource would have Hugh benefits during the time when FFs become scarce and grossly expensive and the time when solar/wind (or nuclear, regrettably) become the dominant source of energy supply.
Adaptation. It’s in the genes. Well, for some of us.
They might work depending on your climate. but to say they 'compete' is flat out wrong. come back and claim that when one can get one installed for a couple thousand dollars. 27-30k is way too much.
compete means to do what conventional HVAC systems do. I mentioned they are expensive, but on a life-cycle cost basis GHPs and conventional systems are often within 25%, and price competitive for new construction.
I also mentioned they are expensive at the current prices for FFs. The energy savings will tip the cost balance when FF prices double or more.
My point was to suggest with some experimentation, there are likely ways to tap the below-ground thermal reservoir suitable for one's local climate, and bypass the high current costs for closed loop systems. And Bob above was pointing out one.
Why would you expect something that could save you close to $2000 a year (at current energy prices) would have to be "installed for a couple thousand dollars"? Given where energy prices are headed, it is my old electric AC plus heating oil that can't compete with geothermal.
People really need to start taking a longer-range view of things. The days of cheap energy are coming to an end. The cost of doing something about home energy consumption is only going to go up, as is the cost of not doing something.
We're stuck on 'Cheap, Fast, Easy' solutions.. People do keep whining that Alt Energy installations are expensive. Yes, they are, and soon, so will everything be..
My Mom told me about a Music Student with a Russian Teacher, and the student complained that the piece He'd been assigned was hard.. and the teacher excitedly came back with 'Good! Hard is Good!' Words to live by!
Of course, sometimes cheap is good, if you aren't embarrassed by thinking you've been 'cheap'.. Part of the mode of thinking we have to challenge in 'rich-minded' places is that it's not necessarily a form of failure when you economize.. put a patch on your clothes, wear sweaters in a colder house, cook more on Monday and reheat leftovers during the week, grab that half-roll of insulation off the sidewalk trash heap and tighten up your home with it. (you just found $4 on the street!!) Be seen biking where 'normal' people drive.. We have a lot of foolish pride in the way of some of these habit-changes..
good comment - i keep trying to break the STBE-wife out of this mindset.... stil she'd prefer to buy new and throw away so that her friends think we're loaded with money instead of flat broke
Someone had a fancy accountant word for this concept - I said I wanted a wind turbine, they said "not cost effective", I said "very cost effective when its the only source of power". Something [minimum] was the phrase ...
We build datacenters and telco central offices to withstand power outages. I'd like to have a home done to the same standard and I'd like it to be prepped for long periods of standalone time.
Most of you are very wealthy; I can tell because you actually have yards.
The vast majority of Americans are living in barracks-like apartment buildings or rented places and have NO jurisdiction over how things are done.
The result is the energy-saving gadgetry I see in the houses of the wealthy, and the huge energy and water waste I see in the dwellings of the vast majority.
The wealthy will have neato water-shut-off shower heads, the poor will have antiquated tubs with added on showers that are tricky as hell to not get icy-cold or blazing hot, and once set, there's a strong incentive to not mess with the thing - so the water blasts all through the shower. Hell it's even that way here - the owner of this place has a nice easy on/off thing, I just have to blast it. I try to compensate by taking less showers lol.
The wealthy can grow veggies on their lawns, the vast majority of us can't do that, no lawns at all or at best a large shared space, a few pots of veggies may be possible on a patio, but they'll get stolen. So the Safeway or the Supermercado are where we get our veggies, 1000's of transport miles in your salad anyone?
I think it's great that you guys are doing all this neat heat pump stuff, but for the vast majority of Americans, if The Landlord has a heater that runs on whale-oil, that's what you use.
The more cost sensitive are probably corralled in that one third who rent, so the ones most in need are, as always, the ones least capable of making changes for a variety of reasons.
The urban areas really pull the home ownership stats down. In the middle of the country, home ownership is 70%, even 75% or more. I would assume there aren't many condos there.
I thought the banks actually own quite a large proportion of the houses ... and that's the problem, because people can't afford the interest payments let alone the capital repayments? ... No?
Just because it is a detached single family home, does not mean there is enough yard for a heat pump, garden, etc. I was wandering through a subdivision under construction a couple of years back, which were eventually put on the market at $700,000. You could, uh, spit out your window and hit your neighbor's house. There might have been enough room to drive a car between them. Maybe.
That's true. But you could put solar panels on the roof, install insulation, insulated windows, energy-efficient appliances, etc., which apartment dwellers can't do.
Those almost new homes may need an energy retrofit with rapidly rising energy prices, I would think someday soon, utility expenses could rival the mortgage payment on poorly insulated homes, at least in winter months.
Anecdotal Evidence
(I doo so love anecdotal - often more real than graphs and charts)
Or
Conversations at the edge of a dying civilisation....
I rang my sister in law tonight while my wife was out (dont read too much into that...) I wanted her opinion of the new CGI film of Beowulf (Crap, but since we had to translate from Anglo Saxon in Eng Lit Classes we both have a dog in the fight.)
Then it went to 'life , the universe and everything' type talk.
They went to Florida for a Holiday at half term. She was excited. LOTS of big properties going cheap, cheaper than last year, and what with the cheap dollar, this was the cheapest holiday they have had for a long time. Cheaper than France, cheaper than Spain.
She said Houses were on the market cheap and the owners even threw in an SUV with the sale.
Let me repeat that:
''and the owners even threw in an SUV with the sale''.
Distress sales.
Big time.
She mentioned the water shortage.
I said dont buy into Florida. (I put her off Spain a couple of years ago).
I said imagine Florida with water rationing and electricity blackouts with no AC.
This girl is no fool. Always on the lookout for the next money maker, she and her husband are an order of magnitude wealthier than me. But she is no fool and a short conversation about Florida turned her from 'buy' to 'walk away from the mess'.
Closer to home: 'how is business?' I asked.
In the space of a two week holiday, she came back to her Northern English , rich, commuter town to find out that 5 of her friend's husbands had been canned. All were in senior positions in Accounting, Marketing and similar.
All within two weeks. All were surprised.
She works as an Estate Agents (Real Estate).
She is good.
She could sell a caveman's cave back to the caveman.
She says ''before I went (to Florida) we were moving a 100 sales a week.''.
Hmmm ... I walk into town most days ( it saves petrol and keeps me fit!) on the way I pass loads of houses that are for sale and nothing seems to sell. Or, if it does sell 'subject to contract' it soon comes back on the market 'cos the 'chain' has broken somewhere.
Oh dear! I hope it's just the time of year and sales will pick up again in the spring!
i like anecdotal too - usually shot down in the short term and born out in the long
i don't know if anyone else is job hunting right now - it is NOT pretty out there - boards are full of junk-jobs (you know the scam job ads) which basically talk more to the distress of the employer not being able to offer real jobs, and to the number of people who must be looking thereby attracting the outright scammers
this economy is in tatters right now - only denial is holding things back
Yes, my experience is that the job situation in natural resources--say forestry-related--has gotten ugly, too. Recently talked with a forester for the Oregon Department of Forestry, and he said that the response to entry-level positions (Technician-level) has been phenomenal in recent months. Not just the huge number of applicants, but also the qualifications of the applicants were unprecedented (qualified for much higher positions). He's been with the ODF for over two decades. I've heard similar comments from people at the Washington Department of Natural Resources, too. Just a couple more anecdotes to add to the rest.
You shouldn't have put her off Spain. It would have been a better investment than anything she's bought in the US since then. Climate change notwithstanding, Spain will be in a better position than most of the US.
Spain housing is a large pile of animal origin NPK fertilizer in terms of valuations. Can't speak to the climate there, but you said "investment" and its all Florida condos in terms of behavior now :-(
The vast majority of Americans are living in barracks-like apartment buildings or rented places and have NO jurisdiction over how things are done.
Any idea how many are living in the barracks-like holding tanks or apartments and condos? Owned or unowned? How about the suburbs -- Zoning and code, I think, tend to be easier the higher up the feeding chain one goes.
For intellectual interest alone I watched Victoria Beckham on TV house buying and after clinically observing the drop in her décolletage for a bit noticed the house she was looking at had a cement patio with no railing and a very dramatic drop over the edge. No code I know would let that pass without a buck to grease those railings away.
I get the idea our government will do everything in its power to keep most Americans "owning" a home. That wey they know where we are - and where to expect the annual tax remittance.
Knock out our homes and our employment, and its gonna be fun trying to find anyone who owes money.
How difficult for business would it be if we were in a position where we were all "rolling stones - every place we laid our hat was our home"? Credit? Forget it - Barter across the barrel head or no business done. Social Security numbers? Why? The system is bankrupt. If you want me to do this, give me that.
How do you keep the masses in line if you can't threaten to confiscate their stuff - if they don't have any?
Its gonna be hell living in a nation of "housing projects".
I can see a helluva lot of humanity having lifestyles resembling that of feral cats if we crash our economic system.
It has its good side and bad sides.
Good side - No Taxes! No Payments Due!
Bad side - Lots of violence. Few creature comforts.
This is why I feel the FED has no choice but to try to inflate our currency, so we can keep as many people in their homes as possible, even if it means business must again hire the American worker because outsourcing would mean a nasty currency valuation hit.
of course those figures skew high in the age range right? so there are many many 20-30somethings that are in the rent not own space, and those are the ones that really have the most need to be able to do something for the future
Or you are forced to use what you can afford at the time. For example my mother still lives in the house i grew up in but there is no way she can afford to plunk down 23-30k for something that will only save her 2k a YEAR.
Niether can I afford the 25K. They have special payment plans with one of the big banks, below prime rates. But that just puts off the payback time. So it's either pay all now or pay all later. 2 things make putting in a GSHP palatable. The $9K in government grants and the fact that I'm cashing in the rest of my RRSPs. There's 2 ways to look at it. If the market crashes that money will evaporate anyway. If heating costs go through the roof then my RRSP's will be needed to pay for that. So might as well cash it in now for the savings and comfort down the road.
I am rich, and I am poor. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in-between. Most people own some stuff, but never as much stuff as the 'truly Wealthy'.. we are all paying for energy, and there are at least SOME options for most people to economize and become less dependent on buying fuel, electricity. I was a renter for a long time, and know that there are precious few options. Up here in Maine, more renters are paying their own heat. We have a 3-unit building, and we still provide the Heat/HotWater for the whole building. We have great people in our two apts, and they are watchful about open windows, leaks, etc.. They know that energy is a quickly growing problem, and we've been frank about possibly switching over to everyone covering their own heat, which may give them more reason to look for additional efficiencies.
When I rented in NYC, I started thinking about the 'Winter Fridge' idea, since I did pay my own electricity, and just outside my window there was plenty of cold air that could help make my Fridge cheaper to keep cold. I did do the Compact Fluorescent thing, and was of course a 'Straphanger' and avid pedestrian, which is at least possible in NY. I also grew plants in my back windows, though not foods, and it would have been a pretty minor crop.
Anyway, there are a lot of messages of powerlessness that poison a great many peoples' minds in this country, and so they keep getting into the truck and just trying to get to work on time, whether it's from a rental or their own house and yard. My wife's boss, a nice guy who bikes to work in crazy weather, but comes from what I see as 'The Rich Neighborhoods', he is really excited by my projects and ambitions, and wants to get 'the tour'. He has more resources than we do, but he's inspired that I am taking at least a bit of an initiative to find some original solutions.
I'm already 'converted', I'm a believer in the need and opportunity to enact some changes.. and I have materials to build some projects with, a shop in my dusty/moldy but Rich Basement.. and still it's a real bitch to get as much forward progress as I'd like on these things.
I know you resent the Rich people.. and so do I, and so do they. But frankly, there are people (in small percentages) at all levels who are building things, investing some of their precious money or time, and trying to get the word out.
Jokuhl - I know what the stats say, that 2/3 of americans own and have it great, and then I know what I've seen over my lift - most of us in what amounts to holding cells.
Out here where I am is almost decent. Still too close to the big cities, but closer to the ideal. There's a lot more freedom, read God Guts and Guns country, it's great. But I think the true Midwest, places from Youngstown to Flint to so on, is where the real ELP revolution is going to happen.
But one can live "feral" anywhere, all that kept me from "guerrilla gardening" which is just plant stuff here and there, chard and chives and sweet potatoes, etc was that I was too busy all the time in the Bay Area.
We will all be "feral" in the Gov't's eyes if we're bartering, growing stuff, living in houses we build ourselves on land that's paid for, helping each other out, and on paper making very little $$ but living "richly". That's the ideal. I'll take feral, Amish if you like, living over the gov't regulated Oligarch-owned holding pens any time.
You are conflating "owning" with "having it great".
Some of us own ("own"), but barely hang on, and make do without a lot of things simply in order to hang on. I know a lot of people who are, like me, land poor. I will not be installing any fancy heat pumps or photovoltaic panels, I can assure you.
However, I can get my firewood from my woods here. I guess that's pretty nice. Except my back hurts.
As does my back ache once or twice a year, but the heat is dry and warms more than the body. I have a simple no frills wood stove rated 70% efficiency , that's more than I can say about any other way of heating. Other than cleaning the chimney and in a long while replacing a bit of pipe, no need to worry about breakdowns. I can cook an egg on it or do a stew if need be and the ashes and carbon go straight to the garden in spring to grow my food. Heat pumps why bother if you have this better choice. Freedom from want and worry that is real wealth.
For anyone not to old at heart and wishing they weren't living in a holding tank I would suggest living on a boat. Lovely kind of life and with a bit of looking there is a boat for every budget. The first live aboard my wife of a year and I bought was at auction, a 34 ft double ender gill netter for 1200 dollars. It floated but needed work cleaning out fuel tanks, starting the engine a bit of caulking a dab of paint and a bunch of scrounging but all that that only cost labour and we owned that already. My wife and I had never owned a boat before and basically knew nothing about it other than we thought it would be fun, and it was. Much much better than the half a duplex we had been renting.
At 65 I think it might be fun to live that life again, there will be plenty of fine sailboats cheaply available soon, especially if we really hit an economic meltdown which is looking more possibly every day.
Feral lifestyle eh? I like that way of looking at it as that's what boat life is. Feral with capitals and bells on! Too bad I have a garden with fruit trees and nice things like that to tie me down.
The idea of living on a boat sounds very interesting, indeed! One of my brothers did it for a couple of years.
I've been heating with wood for many years, and love the kind of heat it puts out, and being able to cook on it, etc. Well worth a bit of soreness - I can say that now that my woodshed is full :-)
And the ashes are indeed good on the garden (in moderation - it can be overdone, especially for potatoes which like it a bit acid). I, too, have growing things tieing me down - not least of which is my love of my place. But I've got a horse, sheep, chickens, dogs, etc., as well.
I lived on a Tri for a while, but in a tropical environment.
I soon abandoned the idea, tore down a old house boat, restored a abandoned house in the jungle with a few comrades. Spear fished for barter, and a bit of cash.
I came home one day and one of my woman friends had installed human skull candle holders, left over remains from WWII.
We used kerosene for light and fuel.
Electricity was not a option.
Water from rainwater off the roof.
I guess you could consider that feral.
I now live in Mill Valley with a medium house rate value at 1.25 million.
I am renting.
But, the boat thing is a option, and the market will be good.
Sausalito is within walking distance, which is the home of the outlaw house boat.
COOL TUBE - Low-tech Geothermal Option
It can be hard to find much info on it, but my family built a house in the White Mts in Western Maine around 1980, and included a 'Cool Tube' in the design, whereby the 4" PVC Drainpiping that surrounded the foundation a bit below the frost-line (about 50" around here) had a spur added to it that went a ways off (50'?) and emerged as an Air Intake, (with squirrel-screen on it and a j-turn to keep rain out..) while another spur came into the house and up through the slab near the kitchen plumbing lines, so that air drawn in by the house's natural convection was brought up from the winter temps into the 40-45 degree range by it's long travel through the submerged drains before entering the house.
This provided an oxygen-rich air supply at a decent temp, which is very helpful in a home that relies on any kind of combustion-based heating. It also can balance out the negative pressure that draws excessive COLD winter air in any crack, or anytime a door or window is opened, even momentarily.
A small fan can be added to help create a Positive Pressure from the Cool Tube to further defeat any Infiltration. This system also helps in the Summer, bringing nice cool and fresh air into the home, and keeping leaks from allowing the Hot Ambient Air in.. though some systems and warmer regions need to be more careful about condensation and hence, Mold Issues.
I'm eager to try a "Cool Tube" retrofit in my In-town 1850 bldg Basement, where the Heat Exchange will use the stone walls/foundation perimeter to bring up the temps of the frigid winter air..
I've still got more insulation going on right now.. but I'm hoping I can get a roughed in test for this going this winter, as well as the 'Winter Fridge', which is a simple (!?) Heatexchanger using Antifreeze, Propylene Glycol to grab some Winter Cold and Help my fridge stay cool while it lives absurdly inside a house that I'm paying to keep WARM..
Hopeful in the face of multiple Ironies!
Bob Fiske
Excellent work, Bob. Any performance data or other specifics to share would be useful to others.
IMO, GHPs have evolved to compete with traditional HVAC systems, but are still very costly right now in comparison to air-exchange heat pumps or oil and gas heaters and electric A/C.
Nonetheless, a fundamental resource is the near-constant temperature thermal reservoir below 10 ft or so from the surface. More novel designs and work to use this (renewable) resource would have Hugh benefits during the time when FFs become scarce and grossly expensive and the time when solar/wind (or nuclear, regrettably) become the dominant source of energy supply.
Adaptation. It’s in the genes. Well, for some of us.
They might work depending on your climate. but to say they 'compete' is flat out wrong. come back and claim that when one can get one installed for a couple thousand dollars. 27-30k is way too much.
compete means to do what conventional HVAC systems do. I mentioned they are expensive, but on a life-cycle cost basis GHPs and conventional systems are often within 25%, and price competitive for new construction.
I also mentioned they are expensive at the current prices for FFs. The energy savings will tip the cost balance when FF prices double or more.
My point was to suggest with some experimentation, there are likely ways to tap the below-ground thermal reservoir suitable for one's local climate, and bypass the high current costs for closed loop systems. And Bob above was pointing out one.
Why would you expect something that could save you close to $2000 a year (at current energy prices) would have to be "installed for a couple thousand dollars"? Given where energy prices are headed, it is my old electric AC plus heating oil that can't compete with geothermal.
People really need to start taking a longer-range view of things. The days of cheap energy are coming to an end. The cost of doing something about home energy consumption is only going to go up, as is the cost of not doing something.
We're stuck on 'Cheap, Fast, Easy' solutions.. People do keep whining that Alt Energy installations are expensive. Yes, they are, and soon, so will everything be..
My Mom told me about a Music Student with a Russian Teacher, and the student complained that the piece He'd been assigned was hard.. and the teacher excitedly came back with 'Good! Hard is Good!' Words to live by!
Of course, sometimes cheap is good, if you aren't embarrassed by thinking you've been 'cheap'.. Part of the mode of thinking we have to challenge in 'rich-minded' places is that it's not necessarily a form of failure when you economize.. put a patch on your clothes, wear sweaters in a colder house, cook more on Monday and reheat leftovers during the week, grab that half-roll of insulation off the sidewalk trash heap and tighten up your home with it. (you just found $4 on the street!!) Be seen biking where 'normal' people drive.. We have a lot of foolish pride in the way of some of these habit-changes..
Bob
what he said...
Jeff
thirded
good comment - i keep trying to break the STBE-wife out of this mindset.... stil she'd prefer to buy new and throw away so that her friends think we're loaded with money instead of flat broke
STBE-wife (?) Sorry, I'm being slow today..
Space Transportation Booster Engine (NASA). That's some wife! ;o)
Soon To Be Ex
Someone had a fancy accountant word for this concept - I said I wanted a wind turbine, they said "not cost effective", I said "very cost effective when its the only source of power". Something [minimum] was the phrase ...
We build datacenters and telco central offices to withstand power outages. I'd like to have a home done to the same standard and I'd like it to be prepped for long periods of standalone time.
Most of you are very wealthy; I can tell because you actually have yards.
The vast majority of Americans are living in barracks-like apartment buildings or rented places and have NO jurisdiction over how things are done.
The result is the energy-saving gadgetry I see in the houses of the wealthy, and the huge energy and water waste I see in the dwellings of the vast majority.
The wealthy will have neato water-shut-off shower heads, the poor will have antiquated tubs with added on showers that are tricky as hell to not get icy-cold or blazing hot, and once set, there's a strong incentive to not mess with the thing - so the water blasts all through the shower. Hell it's even that way here - the owner of this place has a nice easy on/off thing, I just have to blast it. I try to compensate by taking less showers lol.
The wealthy can grow veggies on their lawns, the vast majority of us can't do that, no lawns at all or at best a large shared space, a few pots of veggies may be possible on a patio, but they'll get stolen. So the Safeway or the Supermercado are where we get our veggies, 1000's of transport miles in your salad anyone?
I think it's great that you guys are doing all this neat heat pump stuff, but for the vast majority of Americans, if The Landlord has a heater that runs on whale-oil, that's what you use.
Two-thirds of Americans own rather than rent.
Though I expect that to be changing, perhaps by a lot.
The more cost sensitive are probably corralled in that one third who rent, so the ones most in need are, as always, the ones least capable of making changes for a variety of reasons.
Own with lots or just own? Are condominiums and owned apartments included in that?
I assume that counts condos. But most are single detached (i.e., single family houses). Some census data here.
Also found this map interesting:
http://www.danter.com/statistics/ho2005.pdf
The urban areas really pull the home ownership stats down. In the middle of the country, home ownership is 70%, even 75% or more. I would assume there aren't many condos there.
I thought the banks actually own quite a large proportion of the houses ... and that's the problem, because people can't afford the interest payments let alone the capital repayments? ... No?
Just because it is a detached single family home, does not mean there is enough yard for a heat pump, garden, etc. I was wandering through a subdivision under construction a couple of years back, which were eventually put on the market at $700,000. You could, uh, spit out your window and hit your neighbor's house. There might have been enough room to drive a car between them. Maybe.
That's true. But you could put solar panels on the roof, install insulation, insulated windows, energy-efficient appliances, etc., which apartment dwellers can't do.
Those almost new homes may need an energy retrofit with rapidly rising energy prices, I would think someday soon, utility expenses could rival the mortgage payment on poorly insulated homes, at least in winter months.
Anecdotal Evidence
(I doo so love anecdotal - often more real than graphs and charts)
Or
Conversations at the edge of a dying civilisation....
I rang my sister in law tonight while my wife was out (dont read too much into that...) I wanted her opinion of the new CGI film of Beowulf (Crap, but since we had to translate from Anglo Saxon in Eng Lit Classes we both have a dog in the fight.)
Then it went to 'life , the universe and everything' type talk.
They went to Florida for a Holiday at half term. She was excited. LOTS of big properties going cheap, cheaper than last year, and what with the cheap dollar, this was the cheapest holiday they have had for a long time. Cheaper than France, cheaper than Spain.
She said Houses were on the market cheap and the owners even threw in an SUV with the sale.
Let me repeat that:
''and the owners even threw in an SUV with the sale''.
Distress sales.
Big time.
She mentioned the water shortage.
I said dont buy into Florida. (I put her off Spain a couple of years ago).
I said imagine Florida with water rationing and electricity blackouts with no AC.
This girl is no fool. Always on the lookout for the next money maker, she and her husband are an order of magnitude wealthier than me. But she is no fool and a short conversation about Florida turned her from 'buy' to 'walk away from the mess'.
Closer to home: 'how is business?' I asked.
In the space of a two week holiday, she came back to her Northern English , rich, commuter town to find out that 5 of her friend's husbands had been canned. All were in senior positions in Accounting, Marketing and similar.
All within two weeks. All were surprised.
She works as an Estate Agents (Real Estate).
She is good.
She could sell a caveman's cave back to the caveman.
She says ''before I went (to Florida) we were moving a 100 sales a week.''.
''Last week we moved 29''.
Take your partners for the ELP Square-dance.
Hmmm ... I walk into town most days ( it saves petrol and keeps me fit!) on the way I pass loads of houses that are for sale and nothing seems to sell. Or, if it does sell 'subject to contract' it soon comes back on the market 'cos the 'chain' has broken somewhere.
Oh dear! I hope it's just the time of year and sales will pick up again in the spring!
'Best hopes' ... as Alan would say.
'Don't hold your breath' ... as I would say.
i like anecdotal too - usually shot down in the short term and born out in the long
i don't know if anyone else is job hunting right now - it is NOT pretty out there - boards are full of junk-jobs (you know the scam job ads) which basically talk more to the distress of the employer not being able to offer real jobs, and to the number of people who must be looking thereby attracting the outright scammers
this economy is in tatters right now - only denial is holding things back
the old adage about if you are still employed (knock on wood) it's just a recession whereas if you're looking, it's a depression.
FYI, I have a family member in the finance/accounting business that's looking and dittos your observation that it's gotten brutal out there.
Hope you find something soon.
Citigroup looking to layoff 45,000 staffers.
Getting to be time to find a port, maybe any port.
Do you have any evidence to support that? ;-)
Yes, my experience is that the job situation in natural resources--say forestry-related--has gotten ugly, too. Recently talked with a forester for the Oregon Department of Forestry, and he said that the response to entry-level positions (Technician-level) has been phenomenal in recent months. Not just the huge number of applicants, but also the qualifications of the applicants were unprecedented (qualified for much higher positions). He's been with the ODF for over two decades. I've heard similar comments from people at the Washington Department of Natural Resources, too. Just a couple more anecdotes to add to the rest.
-best,
graywulffe in CVO, OR
You shouldn't have put her off Spain. It would have been a better investment than anything she's bought in the US since then. Climate change notwithstanding, Spain will be in a better position than most of the US.
Spain housing is a large pile of animal origin NPK fertilizer in terms of valuations. Can't speak to the climate there, but you said "investment" and its all Florida condos in terms of behavior now :-(
Any idea how many are living in the barracks-like holding tanks or apartments and condos? Owned or unowned? How about the suburbs -- Zoning and code, I think, tend to be easier the higher up the feeding chain one goes.
For intellectual interest alone I watched Victoria Beckham on TV house buying and after clinically observing the drop in her décolletage for a bit noticed the house she was looking at had a cement patio with no railing and a very dramatic drop over the edge. No code I know would let that pass without a buck to grease those railings away.
I think fleam has some valid points.
I get the idea our government will do everything in its power to keep most Americans "owning" a home. That wey they know where we are - and where to expect the annual tax remittance.
Knock out our homes and our employment, and its gonna be fun trying to find anyone who owes money.
How difficult for business would it be if we were in a position where we were all "rolling stones - every place we laid our hat was our home"? Credit? Forget it - Barter across the barrel head or no business done. Social Security numbers? Why? The system is bankrupt. If you want me to do this, give me that.
How do you keep the masses in line if you can't threaten to confiscate their stuff - if they don't have any?
Its gonna be hell living in a nation of "housing projects".
I can see a helluva lot of humanity having lifestyles resembling that of feral cats if we crash our economic system.
It has its good side and bad sides.
Good side - No Taxes! No Payments Due!
Bad side - Lots of violence. Few creature comforts.
This is why I feel the FED has no choice but to try to inflate our currency, so we can keep as many people in their homes as possible, even if it means business must again hire the American worker because outsourcing would mean a nasty currency valuation hit.
of course those figures skew high in the age range right? so there are many many 20-30somethings that are in the rent not own space, and those are the ones that really have the most need to be able to do something for the future
Or you are forced to use what you can afford at the time. For example my mother still lives in the house i grew up in but there is no way she can afford to plunk down 23-30k for something that will only save her 2k a YEAR.
Niether can I afford the 25K. They have special payment plans with one of the big banks, below prime rates. But that just puts off the payback time. So it's either pay all now or pay all later. 2 things make putting in a GSHP palatable. The $9K in government grants and the fact that I'm cashing in the rest of my RRSPs. There's 2 ways to look at it. If the market crashes that money will evaporate anyway. If heating costs go through the roof then my RRSP's will be needed to pay for that. So might as well cash it in now for the savings and comfort down the road.
Richard Wakefield
Well Fleam, you're right, and you're wrong.
I am rich, and I am poor. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in-between. Most people own some stuff, but never as much stuff as the 'truly Wealthy'.. we are all paying for energy, and there are at least SOME options for most people to economize and become less dependent on buying fuel, electricity. I was a renter for a long time, and know that there are precious few options. Up here in Maine, more renters are paying their own heat. We have a 3-unit building, and we still provide the Heat/HotWater for the whole building. We have great people in our two apts, and they are watchful about open windows, leaks, etc.. They know that energy is a quickly growing problem, and we've been frank about possibly switching over to everyone covering their own heat, which may give them more reason to look for additional efficiencies.
When I rented in NYC, I started thinking about the 'Winter Fridge' idea, since I did pay my own electricity, and just outside my window there was plenty of cold air that could help make my Fridge cheaper to keep cold. I did do the Compact Fluorescent thing, and was of course a 'Straphanger' and avid pedestrian, which is at least possible in NY. I also grew plants in my back windows, though not foods, and it would have been a pretty minor crop.
Anyway, there are a lot of messages of powerlessness that poison a great many peoples' minds in this country, and so they keep getting into the truck and just trying to get to work on time, whether it's from a rental or their own house and yard. My wife's boss, a nice guy who bikes to work in crazy weather, but comes from what I see as 'The Rich Neighborhoods', he is really excited by my projects and ambitions, and wants to get 'the tour'. He has more resources than we do, but he's inspired that I am taking at least a bit of an initiative to find some original solutions.
I'm already 'converted', I'm a believer in the need and opportunity to enact some changes.. and I have materials to build some projects with, a shop in my dusty/moldy but Rich Basement.. and still it's a real bitch to get as much forward progress as I'd like on these things.
I know you resent the Rich people.. and so do I, and so do they. But frankly, there are people (in small percentages) at all levels who are building things, investing some of their precious money or time, and trying to get the word out.
Best,
Bob Fiske
Jokuhl - I know what the stats say, that 2/3 of americans own and have it great, and then I know what I've seen over my lift - most of us in what amounts to holding cells.
Out here where I am is almost decent. Still too close to the big cities, but closer to the ideal. There's a lot more freedom, read God Guts and Guns country, it's great. But I think the true Midwest, places from Youngstown to Flint to so on, is where the real ELP revolution is going to happen.
But one can live "feral" anywhere, all that kept me from "guerrilla gardening" which is just plant stuff here and there, chard and chives and sweet potatoes, etc was that I was too busy all the time in the Bay Area.
We will all be "feral" in the Gov't's eyes if we're bartering, growing stuff, living in houses we build ourselves on land that's paid for, helping each other out, and on paper making very little $$ but living "richly". That's the ideal. I'll take feral, Amish if you like, living over the gov't regulated Oligarch-owned holding pens any time.
fleam,
You are conflating "owning" with "having it great".
Some of us own ("own"), but barely hang on, and make do without a lot of things simply in order to hang on. I know a lot of people who are, like me, land poor. I will not be installing any fancy heat pumps or photovoltaic panels, I can assure you.
However, I can get my firewood from my woods here. I guess that's pretty nice. Except my back hurts.
So it goes.
sgage,
As does my back ache once or twice a year, but the heat is dry and warms more than the body. I have a simple no frills wood stove rated 70% efficiency , that's more than I can say about any other way of heating. Other than cleaning the chimney and in a long while replacing a bit of pipe, no need to worry about breakdowns. I can cook an egg on it or do a stew if need be and the ashes and carbon go straight to the garden in spring to grow my food. Heat pumps why bother if you have this better choice. Freedom from want and worry that is real wealth.
For anyone not to old at heart and wishing they weren't living in a holding tank I would suggest living on a boat. Lovely kind of life and with a bit of looking there is a boat for every budget. The first live aboard my wife of a year and I bought was at auction, a 34 ft double ender gill netter for 1200 dollars. It floated but needed work cleaning out fuel tanks, starting the engine a bit of caulking a dab of paint and a bunch of scrounging but all that that only cost labour and we owned that already. My wife and I had never owned a boat before and basically knew nothing about it other than we thought it would be fun, and it was. Much much better than the half a duplex we had been renting.
At 65 I think it might be fun to live that life again, there will be plenty of fine sailboats cheaply available soon, especially if we really hit an economic meltdown which is looking more possibly every day.
Feral lifestyle eh? I like that way of looking at it as that's what boat life is. Feral with capitals and bells on! Too bad I have a garden with fruit trees and nice things like that to tie me down.
The idea of living on a boat sounds very interesting, indeed! One of my brothers did it for a couple of years.
I've been heating with wood for many years, and love the kind of heat it puts out, and being able to cook on it, etc. Well worth a bit of soreness - I can say that now that my woodshed is full :-)
And the ashes are indeed good on the garden (in moderation - it can be overdone, especially for potatoes which like it a bit acid). I, too, have growing things tieing me down - not least of which is my love of my place. But I've got a horse, sheep, chickens, dogs, etc., as well.
But we're pretty feral around here...
I lived on a Tri for a while, but in a tropical environment.
I soon abandoned the idea, tore down a old house boat, restored a abandoned house in the jungle with a few comrades. Spear fished for barter, and a bit of cash.
I came home one day and one of my woman friends had installed human skull candle holders, left over remains from WWII.
We used kerosene for light and fuel.
Electricity was not a option.
Water from rainwater off the roof.
I guess you could consider that feral.
I now live in Mill Valley with a medium house rate value at 1.25 million.
I am renting.
But, the boat thing is a option, and the market will be good.
Sausalito is within walking distance, which is the home of the outlaw house boat.