This has been argued a lot. I, personally, think C+C is what we should be watching. It's what Deffeyes based his prediction on. For good reason, IMO. Hubbert's work was based on geology, and was never intended to model things like ethanol production.

And others have pointed out that using "all liquids" has some double-dipping, since the oil used to produce ethanol is essentially counted twice.

Didn't Deffeyes also define the peak as an average over a 6 month period?

If he didn't he should have. What if the production data were reported weekly, or daily. Where is averging in all this, to discern the trend from the fluctuations? The trend is flat production. It'll take months or more to say otherwise. It's only years from now, averaging out the noise, that we'll put a month/year on peak. But it'll be academic.

It was either Cambell or Deffeys who said that peak should be indicated by whether producers are able to sustain production for at least 5 years.

I also think that this event develops on at least year-long scale. Month to month variations are too minute to indicate (almost) anything - pretty much like following day-to-day price variations.

I would appeal though that we should be equally fair on both sides - a dip in output in one or several months is as much a proof to the "peak-oil-now" theory, as much as a similar short-lived growth is a proof to the opposite.

Hi Leanan,

I agree, C&C is what we should be watching. No matter what line is selected below, peak C&C has probably passed in the year 2005.

click to enlarge

The forecast from 2007 to 2012 is the same for all three lines, (red, green or black) as it is based upon new projects. These new projects include those in this list, which is under development, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Megaprojects

For more information please see my October world oil forecast http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3064

My own opinion is that world C&C will be between the red and green lines. The black line is shown because some people believe the USGS resource estimates.

The current trajectory of the URR is "aimed" directly at 2200 GB.

But for a laugh, you ought to include the EIA's IEO 2006 projections.

using "all liquids" has some double-dipping, since the oil used to produce ethanol is essentially counted twice.

As is the oil used to produce oil.

Everything in "all liquids" is a direct substitute for a major use of oil. EIA and IEA both refer to all liquids as "oil supply". Looking at that number is the only reasonable thing to do.

More importantly, though, since looking at the all liquids number is what everyone else does, it accomplishes nothing to obsess over a different number, except maybe to make peak oil folk look a little out of touch. Nobody else cares about some arbitrary subset of the oil supply, and you'll just hurt your message if you insist they should. It'd be as foolish as insisting that the peak was years ago, since on-shore conventional peaked years ago.

It's also utterly pointless and unnecessary. The important idea is that oil supplies are having trouble satisfying oil demand; the minutiae of month-to-month production levels does not matter in that overall context, and obsessing over it just distracts people and undercuts your message.

Pitt the Elder wrote:

Everything in "all liquids" is a direct substitute for a major use of oil. EIA and IEA both refer to all liquids as "oil supply". Looking at that number is the only reasonable thing to do.

I disagree completely with your statement. The various liquids in the reports are not equal in their ability to produce energy from each barrel of product. That's because there's less energy in a barrel of ethanol or propane than there is in a barrel of crude or products like diesel or JP5 fuel.

Adding all these into a total distorts the facts about the energy available. Without getting into a further discussion regarding the EROEI for oil vs. ethanol, just summing the energy available over time would be better than a total in barrels. That approach would certainly give a better picture of our situation.

Even better would be some attempt at an EROEI analysis, since, as we all know on TOD, the amount of energy required to produce corn ethanol is much higher than that required to drill a hole in the ground. And, were there to be an EROEI approach, this would also capture the fact that oil is no longer being found in large quantities by simply drilling, but now is recovered by major industrial enterprises placed far off shore. This would show that it's becoming ever more difficult to supply the energy demand of consumers outside the small world of the energy producing sectors. To do this would provide all who were interested with a much better grasp of the reality, without there being a need for detailed understanding of the sort we see here on TOD.

E. Swanson