If the USSR was never a socialist prototype, then that begs the question what was it? They certainly thought they were the epitome of socialism.

Personally I do not like the world ‘socialism’ because it is so heavily freighted with propaganda that people cannot think about the underlying phenomena objectively. I prefer the phrase ‘democratic, cooperative economic production’. Clearly the USSR was not an example of such a system. Soviet communism was an economic and political system created by sadistic, autocratic ideologues and imposed by force of terror on a culture with no tradition of democratic institutions. Furthermore, the USSR was fully committed to economic growth and to short term exploitation resources in the pursuit of power and wealth, though admittedly they were much less efficient at this process than we were.

One could have argued that the failure of the democratic Greek city states and the failure of the Roman republic constituted definitive proof that democratic institutions are inconsistent with human nature and should be relegated to the scrap heap of history with greater force of reason than arguing that the failure of the Soviet Union constitutes proof that democratic, cooperative economic production is a practical impossibility. If your intuition tells you than such a form of social organization is inconsistent with human nature I certainly cannot disprove your intuition, but you really need to come up with better supporting reasons for it than the fall of the USSR.

Personally, I find the communism vs. capitalism debate to be somewhat beside the point. We are all heavily dependent on the community in which we live. If Bill Gates along with a mountain of gold bars were transported to an uninhabited world then Bill would be rich no longer. The only true source of wealth is a healthy functioning community. All so called ‘stores of value’ are merely claims against the output of the community. If explicitly recognizing this fact is ‘communism’ the communism is merely common sense.

On the other hand if we are to have any production enterprises above the scale of cottage industries then some method must found of capitalizing such production enterprises. The craft guilds of the middle ages were capitalized industries. The question is whether the current system for investing in production infrastructure, which I call private finance capitalism to distinguish it from capitalism in a more general sense, can function effectively in a world in which production is being limited by the availability of resources. I believe that the clear answer to this question is “no”. The only effective way to deal with resource depletion is to voluntarily limit consumption. In the current economic system limiting consumption would lead to a huge economic depression and massive unemployment. This reality is a fundamental structural defect of private finance capitalism which must be fixed if we have any hope of creating a humane, democratic society in the long term. If it is really true that our only choices are Wall Street or the Politburo, then I fear that the Politburo is our future.

This reality is a fundamental structural defect of private finance capitalism which must be fixed if we have any hope of creating a humane, democratic society in the long term. If it is really true that our only choices are Wall Street or the Politburo, then I fear that the Politburo is our future.

And who gets to be those elitist people who control the lives of everyone else? What right do they have to dictate to everyone else how to live? How do you stop them from becoming corrupt? And is their authority enforced through force? Death camps, slave camps? Anyone who disagrees with the system must be "punished"?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Richard Wakefield

Why do you think those elites would be any different people than the ones we are dealing with in the U.S. today?

You have completely misunderstood the intention of my post. It is you who are insisting on the absolute dichotomy between autocratic control freaks and the supposed absolute freedom of private finance capitalism. My statement about making a choice between Wall Street and the Politburo was intended as irony. I believe other possibilities exist. If they do not then let civilization burn. I would rather return to village style tribalism rather than live under a system of serfdom as either a slave or a master.

I see no reason why a choice to limit consumption cannot be made in a democratic manner. You and I both know that a single person commuting to work in a 3 ton pickup truck is an incredibly bad idea. That reason we do not ban such behavior is not because the hearts of U.S. lawmakers bleed for the potential psychological suffering of people who have to give up their beloved 400hp monsters; It's because banning such sales would hurt American car manufacturers and eliminate jobs in the automobile industry. Such concerns are very real within the context of the economy as it now exists, but there is no reason for this context to be continued forever. In a world of declining fossil fuel supplies banning the production and sales of such vehicles will collectively enrich us, and the people who voluntarily give up such destructive activities should be supported by the community until they can find new jobs. Instead of clinging to an economic system whose raison d'etre is to increase the total volume of economic transactions as rapidly as possible, we need to create an economic system which seeks to carry out only those economic transactions which support a decent quality of life. We need an economic system which emphasizes the creation of stable community wealth and mutual support rather than the competitive accumulation of private wealth. I do not see why we need autocratic elites to impose such a system by force. All we need is the intelligence to understand that we are members of a mutually dependent community and to act in accordance with this understanding.

Roger,
Good posts. I agree with everything you say. The million dollar question is how do we get there from here? And thinking about that brings to mind a point which I think may be relevant.
To what extent are our problems the result of the decoupling of capital from social responsibility? Or perhaps they have never been together but need merging. But I have money in a mutual fund with no knowledge of how that money is being used. This can't be good. If I had it invested in a local business I would be more likely to know whether that business and my money were a good thing or bad thing for the community. Obviously the argument against this is rate of return but it seems this would provide at least some check on greed.

The question of how to get from here to there is key question, but is almost unanswerable at the present time. I see very little chance of a rational turning back from the path we are on in the near term. Only when it becomes clear to a majority of the population that middleclass security is disappearing from the face of the earth will a political space open up for genuine institutional change. Even then the path of change will be difficult and tumultuous. I suspect our future will be decided in the streets (a la Argentina or Bolivia) rather than at the ballot box.

As for socially responsible investing, my view is that in the future the only way to earn money should be by working for it. The phenomenon of money earning money needs to disappear from the face of the earth. Of course we will still need to invest in manufacturing infrastructure, but this investing should be done by the community. The return on that investment will be the goods and services produced. Your salary is the return on your investment of labor. Money can increase in value only if the overall productivity of the economy is increasing. Although in some instances the productivity of a particular community may increase, there is no reason to allow large private accumulations of wealth to result from that increase. And, in general, in a post growth world increasing productivity will not be a rule governing all communities at all times. Financial investment will become a relic of the past although saving will still exist.

My statement about making a choice between Wall Street and the Politburo was intended as irony.

Ah, sorry. Now I see. Difficult at times to get such subtleness in a forum.

I would rather return to village style tribalism rather than live under a system of serfdom as either a slave or a master.

As is my position.

In a world of declining fossil fuel supplies banning the production and sales of such vehicles will collectively enrich us, and the people who voluntarily give up such destructive activities should be supported by the community until they can find new jobs.

And that is the Big Unknown. It all depends if governments can have control over the collapse. I don't think it will be possible, but they will try (and fail). Chaos is going to rule, and rationings will be imposed. It will be a whole new era.

Richard Wakefield

It all depends if governments can have control over the collapse. I don't think it will be possible, but they will try (and fail).

It’s not really a question of what governments are going to try to do; It’s a question of what you and I are going to do. Governments will try to preserve the status quo for as long as possible even though doing so will destroy the middle class. When a majority of the population realizes that middle class security is disappearing from the world then the real fun will begin. The transformation that follows will indeed be chaotic, but a new order will come into being only as a result of people rolling up their sleeves and doing the hard work of creating it. The era of being passive consumers is coming to an end. You had better decides what it is that you really believe in and be prepared to go to the streets to promote and defend it.