216 comments on Does Less Energy Mean More Farmers ?
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
216 comments on Does Less Energy Mean More Farmers ?
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
- What "Lower Consumption" Means
- Tricking and Treating the Future
- Meeting Energy Decline Part-Way - Potatoes?
TOD:Europe
- The Future of Nuclear Energy: Facts and Fiction - Part IV: Energy from Breeder Reactors and from Fusion?
- The US stimulus and "green jobs"
- EROWI - energy return of water invested
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- The Bullroarer - Saturday 7th November 2009
- The Bullroarer - Friday 30th October 2009
- Details of Solar Flagships Released
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- The Energy Blog
- Entropy Production
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“Of all races in an advanced stage of civilization, the American is the least accessible to long views… Always and everywhere in a hurry to get rich, he does not give a thought to remote consequences; he sees only present advantages… He does not remember, he does not feel, he lives in a materialist dream.”
—Moiseide Ostrogorski (1902, 302-303)
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
Conversation with high school student a couple of years ago. I described my take on the problems ahead. Student said, what should major in? I replied: something related to agriculture would be a great idea. She looked at me like I had grown two heads.
So, what else is new? I guess all we can do is try to persuade those who will listen.
I nominate Jason Bradford and Alan Drake as TOD Persons of the Year for advocating LOF (Localization Of Food) and EOT (Electrification Of Transportation).
Thank you for posting this article. The bubble plot of energy/population/%ag is really innovative. There are a lot of dashed lines connecting energy to food production and indirectly to the percent of people working as farmers. Including fertilizer production from natural gas and the decrease of this activity in the face of higher natural gas prices, in my opinion, can result in the conclusion that less energy means much more starvation. There is also a connection here with the recent Energy Bill and price supports which were, and were not, supported.
High school students do not seem interested in Agriculture.
The Hispanic students see agriculture as lowly peasant labor - something they want to get away from.
Where are these new Farmers going to come from ??
Unemployed law school graduates and unemployed mortgage brokers, investment bankers, etc. would be a start. In any case, when faced with PPP--Produce; Perish or Pilfer (joint acronym effort)--people will have to make a decision.
From "Casablanca"
Which reminds me of some jokes from 1986 (when oil fell to $10):
A geologist applies for a job at a convenience store. The manager said that he had no openings for geologists, but he would like to hire another petroleum engineer.
What's the difference between a mockingbird and a Texas oilman? A mockingbird can still make a deposit on a Mercedes.
deleted
High school students do not seem interested in Agriculture.
Well, why would you?
Long hours of hard physical labor around things that can hurt you - for low pay.
Now take the income from raw farm output and pay taxes, insurance, and for equipment to run a farm. Lets not forget, when you send a grown product off of your farm, you need to replace that atomic matter - so you are adding compost, rock dust or other materials TO the land.
Then look at how many farms KEEP existing due to outside cash flows beyond the sale of farm output.
A sample story but with a happy ending.
Have many farmer friends and neighbours. This guy is very large and strong. Biceps the size of logs. Went to farm equipment show. Bent over pto shaft of new tractor running new bailer to have a closer look.PTO shaft guard was not on correctly and the pto caught his shirt as it turned and started to wind him up at 540 rpm. He had the presence of mind to brace himself with his immense arms and legs. It took off ALL his clothes except his socks.
SolarHouse
That is a great story - only because of the happy ending of having his clothing ripped.
(and it backs up my "Man is farm work dangerous!" point)
It sure is dangerous. I come from a family that includes many farmers over many generations, and the stories are legion. We lost an uncle two years ago when the tractor he was repairing somehow went into gear and pinned him against the wall of the barn...what a way to go. Still...is it worse than dying of stress releated heart disease? I'm not so sure.
The bones of people from many early agricultural societies show extensive evidence of osteoarthritis and bodies broken by hard labour at a relatively young skeletal and dental age. As one who runs a small farm producing most of life's needs and a small surplus (supplemented by a 3 day a week off farm income), I can relate to this. Even with the aid of a 50 hp tractor for the heaviest of work, defeating the life-force embodied in feral photosynthesis (aka weeds) without recourse to herbicides, mulching, preparing vegetable beds, planting and picking the crop, shearing, fixing fences etc, all this leaves me frequently physically spent and sore at the end of the day. But at least the need for weight loss programs and gym memberships don't rate as problems. I do all this out of a doomerish belief in it's inevitable necessity and a desire to build the skill set to pass on to others when required. The vast majority of our convenience obsessed society have no idea what it will take to stay alive in the age of energy descent. Given the choice few would do what I do, how will they respond when there is no choice? Probably try thieving. As a teenager who helped himself to a farmer's apples on my way home from school, I can remember the sting of a 12 gauge loaded with rock salt. I wonder what society's response to that would be today?
My experience farming at home for 20 years and working at an organic farm has been identical.
Then there's the problem of crop loss when you don't spray. I saw whole crops of onions, broccoli, and beans wiped out by galinsoga where I work.
How many people here have actually seen and contemplated the horror of galinsoga?
My new motto: "Prolific internet postings do not a farming movement make."
Todays farm is not the farm of your grandparents.
But it could be. Frankly good honest work should not result in
infirmities nor illnesses. It is healthy to pursue manual labor. Where was it ever proven otherwise?
There are lots of Amish and Mennonites in this part of my state. I see them constantly and they look pretty healthy to me. I have friends my age who grew up on the farms of yesteryear and they are for the most part doing well..even at 70 yrs of age.
It seems that the ones who lived in town are the ones who perish first of many ailments. Mostly heart related.
Yet todays farm is a dangerous place. Due to a vast array of chemicals that can kill or make you very ill. Very powerful equipment that can do the same. Huge amounts of grain dust and pollen due to massive one crop farming. The chicken houses are cesspools as are the confinement hog feeding houses.
We never engaged in such. The chickens were mostly free ranging. We didn't close pen our animals. We treated our livestock well. We needed them.
We lived more in tune with nature and not destroying it.
Again its not the same now as then....BUT it certainly could be if we forgot this nonsense of globalization. Just raised what we needed in this country and pitched all the junk and toys. Raise our children in healthy surroundings. Not penned up like todays animals in confinement structures. Get rid of the child molestors,pedophiles and criminals by executing swift and sure justice instead of 'studying them'.
I would suspect that most farmers have off-farm children that they can call in--if it ever again becomes profitable to farm, the children will come back. I've one uncle with a small farm. He has one scheme or other to keep the family afloat, but I wouldn't be surprised if the farm itself is a losing proposition. He has 3 kids, all married, all gone, all highly educated. They might come back for $100K - $200K / year.
It'd take a crisis for them to return, but they could pull their weight.
Your high school student is neither the first nor the most famous person to react that way. Bertrand Russell once jibed with astonishment (link, small pdf) that the University of Wisconsin would pay heed to worldly concerns, saying: "When any farmer’s turnips go wrong, they send a professor to investigate the failure scientifically."
Incidentally, the University's Stock Pavilion used to be used as a classical concert venue as well as for livestock shows. A story retold by old-timers among the local musicians has it that years ago, one of the Russian orchestras (don't recall which one) objected strenuously when they arrived on tour and saw where they were to play. The response was that since the local symphony sometimes played there, and since the Russians were Marxists big on equality, the locals really could not quite see their objection.
So I guess that while agriculture brings out a lot of mile-wide, inch-deep cheap sentiment - hence "ethanol" as a form of farm support - many folks nonetheless see any closer connection than that as, well, icky. And yes, I also guess you seemed to have an anomalous number of heads that day...
Wow! I am honored. And coming from the ELP-master himself. Should the TOD Overlords set up some kind of poll?
Regarding the sorry social stigma of agriculture. This is really sad. It is not universal among young folks though. There is a subculture interested. They often gravitate toward permaculture workshops, they may go to the degree program at UC Santa Cruz, or join the WOOFERS, intern on CSA veggie farms...but they are generally landless and have many countervailing pressures drawing them away from these pursuits.
Burlington Vermont (Intervale) and organization in Monterey County CA are doing fine work in professional development for young farmers--giving them access to land and capital, and helping them develop markets. Farmlink connects young to old farmers with the idea of future equity transfer.
I think young people today have a harder time swallowing the idea of being sharecroppers, so they get bummed out not owning the land they work. You think "farmer" is stigmatized, imagine telling your proposed future inlaws that you are a "sharecropping farmer."
If baby boomers want food security in their old age they may want to think about transferring equity to those eager to live a life connected to the land.
I'll second the nomination. Jason's PO messages and showing of End of Suburbia at the Willits Enviro Ctr. a few years ago was my wake-up call.
Rat