You do realise that the Storm-smith work has been entirely discredited?

Do you realise your comment has been entirely discredited? :-p

I expect better from TOD readers than that.

Storm has recently revised his work in response to various critiques.

By all means publish a critique of his current work, and link to it here in a comment.

Storm has recently revised his work in response to various critiques.
No they haven't. They issued a number of content free rebuttals about how their models are better than actual measured reality.

They're frauds.

It's so easy to call someone who says something unpalatable a fraud.

Feel free to publish a detailed rebuttal.

http://nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower/SSRebuttalResp

The university of melbourne study actually measures energy inputs from mines and plants constructed, but hey, if it doesnt match your model, start making crap up I suppose.

Storm and Smith are prima donna liars with an axe to grind.

The Nuclearinfo site was a welcome dissection of the hyperbole of Storm van Leeuwen and Smith (SLS). In particular, it destroyed their claim that nuclear power's EROEI dips below one as ore grades are lowered by showing that SLS's predictive formulae for the energy requirements of uranium extraction overestimate energy use in existing mines by up to two orders of magnitude. With accuracy this suspect I find it suprising that any author would risk their credibility by basing their argument of future uranium scarcity solely on the work of SLS.

I recently discovered an even more detailed critique of their methods by Roberto Dones, a LCA researcher at the Paul Scherrer Institute, in Switzerland:

Critical note on the estimation by Storm van Leeuwen J.W. and Smith P. of the energy uses and corresponding CO2 emissions from the complete nuclear energy chain

SvLS guesstimate relatively high to very high energy requirements and hence corresponding CO2 emissions for the electricity of nuclear origin, the highest to be found in the literature circulating in Internet, especially when low grade uranium ores are considered. The main explanation for SvLS’ high figures lies in their extreme assumptions (often rough guesses, as the authors admit themselves) and partially flawed methodology.

However, because of ideological connotations of the opposition to nuclear energy, often the quotation of (SvLS 2005) is not accompanied by citation of and comparison with the tens of other relevant technical studies that have been and are being produced on the subject, with different results although prevalently converging to relatively low GHG emissions. An opponent to nuclear energy likely chooses the reference that best matches his presumptions, without undergoing the process of critically analyzing and comparing its assumptions and results vs. other studies.

The problem is that SvLS (2005) often convert costs into energetic terms using generic factors, not reported in the text, lacking critical consideration of cost components, and lacking use of technical match to compare with real energy expenditures.... Furthermore, SvLS (2005) add thermal to electric energy directly to give “total energy”, which is certainly not recommended practice.

ISA (2006) uses data from U-production in the Ranger and Beverly mine/mills, with 0.15% ore grade (in U3O8). The energy intensity is approximately 0.45 GJ/kgU. The direct application of the formula in (SvLS 2005 Chapter 2, #5) would give instead 2.0 GJ/kgU and 4.7 GJ/kgU, respectively for soft and hard ores.

Another example of flaws: SvLS (2005) estimate of Olympic Dam for uranium mining & milling energy uses is 70,209 TJ/a against 1,230 TJ/a predicted by the University of Melbourne vs. 5,477 TJ/a actually measured at the mine.

In SvLS (2005, Chapter 4, #8) the volume of radwaste from NPP decommissioning is guesstimated at 93,900 m3. Official estimations by Swiss operators gave for the 1000 MW-size PWR and BWR 7,000 m3 and 14,000 m3, respectively.

ISA (2006) apparently uses the factor 290 kWh/SWU for centrifuge, same as in (SvLS 2005). This electricity intensity had been taken from very old references and does not correspond to modern technology. Recent literature and reports on/from Urenco give values in the range 35-62 kWh/SWU,51 and the trend is towards further decreasing it.

Dezakin:

Storm and Smith are prima donna liars with an axe to grind.

While the sheer scale of their exaggeration makes ad hominem attacks attractive, I find this approach counterproductive in convincing those who quote SLS. Although pointing out that they are solar power proponents who conducted their initial study at the behest of the ideologically anti-nuclear Green parties of the European Parliament is tempting. Just as one could quote David Fleming's belief that:

Lean Energy would be impeded by nuclear power

and ponder why he would question the viability of nuclear power.

Overall, though, I find it far more effective to merely state SLS's assumptions and follow through their logic with frequent comparison to reality. Playing the ball rather than the man really doesn't leave their supporters with much to throw back at you.

Having said all that...there's just something downright untrustworthy about a man with a handlebar moustache.

Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen

rebutting some of this article:
In a comment that I have down below I list two companies (Sparton Resources of Canada and Wildhorse Energy. (5000-15000 tons of uranium per year from European flyash alone.)
http://www.wise-uranium.org/upeur.html#AJKA

Flyash is 160-180 parts per million uranium. 40 times better than granite.

Uranium mining info
http://www.wise-uranium.org/indexu.html#UMMCI

Uranium prices are substantially off of their peak
http://www.uxc.com/review/uxc_Prices.aspx

Only two thorium reactors in 2075 ? There is a project to make thorium fuel rods that can be used in most existing nuclear reactors. This seems likely to succeed in 3 years.
MIT Tecnology Review discusses the efforts to get thorium used in reactors for less waste (unburned fuel)

the Fuji Molten Salt Reactor (which could use thorium) seems to be 8-9 years from completion. The Fuji Molten salt reactor could burn 99.9% of the plutonium, uranium and thorium. So it would handle the waste issue and with profitable energy generation not some made up cost for waste handling.

The Hyperion power generation uranium hydride reactor scheduled for 2012 completion can also use thorium hydride A good hydride reactor design would burn 50% of the fuel instead of current 1-2% reducing fuel demand and leftover waste.

CANDU-type reactors - AECL is researching the thorium fuel cycle application to enhanced CANDU-6 and ACR-1000 reactors. With 5% plutonium (reactor grade) plus thorium high burn-up and low power costs are indicated. CANDU reactors can breed fuel from natural thorium, if uranium is unavailable.

The best way to get rid of the current and future waste is to build better reactors that burn all of the fuel and can generate electricity from existing waste.

The plan to use some expensive method to handle the unburned fuel is like saying if we used dollar bills for a nuclear waste incinerator it would cost a lot of money. Yes that would be expensive and an idiotic plan.

Amen --well said. And thanks for the excellent links.

Harm

Thanks for the comments referencing my post.

It is disappointing that certain data and projects is chosen to be ignored by many of those on the oil drum when it does not fit their pre-determined view. The lack of concern over air pollution deaths and ignoring solutions to flaws surrounding proposed alternatives.

Thanks advancednano ... some good links there.

Tell me, when you say the Thorium cycle "can" breed fuel grade U233 - what is the energy economics of that process ? ... is it a process that should be promoted irrespective of the available Uranium sources ?

Is that CANDU / AECL Thorium cycle really just R&D stage, or is there proven (economically viable) breeder technology from UK's previous "fast breeder" technology ?

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-81620/thorium-processing

When bombarded by thermalized neutrons (usually released by the fission of uranium-235 in a nuclear reactor), thorium-232 is converted to thorium-233. This isotope decays to protactinium-233, which in turn decays to uranium-233.

http://thoriumenergy.blogspot.com/2006/06/latest-developments-on-u-233-s...

If you get a mass of uranium 235 or plutonium or some other source of thermalized neutrons and put it with the thorium then you initiate the reactions which lead to uranium 233.

http://thoriumenergy.blogspot.com is the place to learn more.

Well, does this mean I have to do a complete rebuttal of the work every single time another indentikit green group uses it as a primary reference for another anti-nuclear screed? It's as bad as global warming denialists reusing the same arguments again and again and again..

I expect better from TOD contributors than to be uncritical of their sources.

I think the implied suggestion was that you could write a full and detailed article, then post it here on TOD or elsewhere, then every time the "wrong" ideas come up, you can just link them to your article.

I've done that with a few little issues, it saves me a lot of typing and hassle.

It'd also prevent the arguments from simply being, "I think X"
"X is wrong, and you're stupid if you think so."
"Why?"
"It's so stupid I don't even have to refute it."
"Well then, you poopyhead!"
"No, you poopyhead!"

Not terribly informative or useful.

Peak-Oil, Global Warming, Nuclear-Sustainability ... they all suffer from the same problem.

On the face of it they are "scientific" problems to be addressed "scientifically" - but there are just not enough hours in the day, nor enough good-will amongst the combatants, to construct logically watertight cases either way on every point of contention. (At least not before the resources run out.)

There will be exaggeration, incentives, hyperbole, interests, axe-grinding and good-old-fashioned rhetoric, you name it - so long as the method is (entirely) adversarial.

So, as we find (in the microcosm of this thread) that we have to use more than "science". We have to use "wisdom" and the appearance of handle-bar moustaches. Think about it (the value of good-will) and get used to it, quick.

(Interesting article and thread BTW - I must follow-up some of the secondary source references, in order to contribute.)

... does this mean I have to do a complete rebuttal of the work every single time another indentikit green group uses it as a primary reference for another anti-nuclear screed? It's as bad as global warming denialists reusing the same arguments again and again and again.

It is as bad, and also it is as helpful to government in protecting its future fossil fuel income. It makes sense that the tactics would be the same. Decent people whack the moles, AGW deniers/antinukes pop up previously whacked ones ready for another go.

How shall the car gain nuclear cachet?

Perhaps you can show how man can make machines that do not fail, then apply that to the most excellent history of the non-failure of fission power reactors and the most excellent history of the uranium processing industry.

Well, come on.

Wanna try?

fluffy,

Link to a long argument you or someone else has previously made on a subject.

As a blogger I find I do not to bore my regular readers by repeatedly saying the same thing at length. But that is why HTML has the "a href" tag. You can link to things.

Remember that some people who have never heard about some argument or study will first read you say something about it in a thread that does not necessarily have a link in it to the best arguments on the topic. Well, provide some links. Provide a useful public service to make the readers more informed.

Just saying that people are speaking nonsense is easy and lazy and I occasionally even do it. But resist the temptation. It is far more effective to link to useful information that rebuts what is being said.