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k Nation (Jim Kunstler)
Remember also that those old lines were built when we didn't yet have an impenetrable thicket of Federal regulations requiring everything from massive overpayment of transit drivers, to treating streetcars and other public facilities as intensive-care wards for every conceivable kind of physical deformity, to giving NIMBYs and BANANAs carte blanche to add limitless costs by shutting down any project indefinitely any time they happen to feel like it.
So we suffer from a hopeless self-inflicted affordability problem that hadn't even been conceived of a hundred years ago.
According to even advocates, just the modern vehicles themselves cost somewhere north of $3 million each, never mind the tracks, the stops, the maintenance facilities, and so on. And for that, all you get is a vehicle that carries 50 or 100 people to work and back each day. That vehicle is so inflexible that it just runs up and down that one track and that's it, so it's little use for the other trips a person needs to make. Oh, and up North, snow and ice interfere with the electrical contact, and jam up the mechanically hyper-complicated trucks under the low-floor vehicle that might be used to try to meet the thicket of regulations. So you have no idea when or even if it will arrive.
Now, recently, there's been a minor boom in streetcars (and light rail), as cities have moved to stuff them into the same urban-jewelry niche occupied by major-league stadiums, convention centers, and other such money-sucking leeches. But I wonder if "we" will ever be able to afford to move beyond that, as the expense is so enormous already and the regulations only metastasize with time. If we have a relatively smooth energy transition, we won't need or want to pay the price. If we have a rough transition, we won't have the money to pay the price. Damned either way. Oh, and just because the problems are largely self-inflicted, doesn't mean it's politically possible to fix them.
I do not have time to address all the points of your screed ATM (intensive care ??) but will point out that New Orleans built 24 new streetcars for the Canal Line @ $1.5 million apiece and they ran under budget. After the first 5, the marginal cost was slightly over $1 million each.
Best Hopes for Stopping the Federal "Ration by Queue" that drives costs up and slows projects Down,
May we become as fast and efficient as French bureaucrats,
Alan
AlanfromBigEasyRulingClass,
All questions about the wisdom of spending money on a sinking city aside, I think it's funny you complaining about screeds from other posters. I can't remember a day on the Oil Drum where you didn't post the exact same thing, again and again.
I finally got fed up with your posts earlier this week when you blamed the protests by poor folks from NO outside the zoning meeting on theatrics. You obviously speak for only a tiny segment of the NO population, and you speak about it more than your share on this forum.
The protesters were not "poor folk from New Orleans".
Alan
Alan is right! The protesters were mostly out of town anarchists. People that did not live in these housing projects! Complaining about tearing these projects down is sort of like a cancer patient being mad at his doctor for curing his cancer! It was/is a failed system that no person ought to be subjected to! Plus, public housing should not be a permanent place for people. It should instead be transitional! A council vote of 7-0 makes it very clear how the people of this city feel!!!
Not sure why I'm wasting the electrons, but...
Of course, in any real light-rail system, each vehicle makes trips at frequent intervals, so that a LRV in Denver's system makes 6 or more round trips in each commute period, transporting hundreds of people each day, rather than "50 or 100".
Don't know where this FUD comes from, but almost every city in Northern Europe runs rail transit through winter with no problem. Norway, Finland, and Sweden know a little about ice and snow, and they somehow manage to run LRVs even in small Northern cities like Trondheim. Wikipedia lists at least 30 cities in Russia running light rail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_light-rail_transit_systems#.C2.A0Fi...) so someone better inform them that ice and snow will soon be shutting all their systems down...
Look, I used to commute on an electric line. Every time it snowed a little, the service was disrupted. Every time it snowed a lot, the service was totally a joke for a day or three (or five.) And the cars basically made one round trip during the rush hour, with most folks getting off at the last stop. The end-to-end round trip was about 90 minutes in perfect weather, so there was no question of the cars making two rush-hour trips; most of the time, most just sat there in a yard doing nothing but costing big bucks. I don't live there now, but none of this has changed one iota, except that the old cars, which had openable windows through which you could hear the sparks crackling as the electricity was disconnected by ice, are long gone.
As for Trondheim, if they have some magic Norwegian trolls who can run a transit line - using any type of vehicle - in a competent manner, let's import some. Let's hire 'em yesterday, preferably sooner. For that matter, I can recall watching folks in Amsterdam get upset because the trams were running up to two minutes late due to a foot race. But here in the USA, people are usually expected to be grateful if the tram, train, bus, or whatever merely deigns to arrive at all - even on a perfect day without foot races.
Now, maybe part of the problem is price. Looking at Copenhagen, I see you can get 12 trips for about $2.40 (DKr 12) each, and it's a zoned system where that typically gets you only a few stops. Tokyo's a bit cheaper, but it, too, charges by distance. OTOH, in New York, $20 gets you 12 trips, $1.67 each, and you can go dozens of stops, clear from Coney Island or Far Rockaway to the north Bronx.
You rarely get what you don't pay for. But if we pay Danish prices, which might triple or quintuple the fare for a typical real-world commute, we get back to the affordability issue. Right now, we "solve" that issue with lavish taxpayer handouts, but I wonder how much longer we will be able to keep it up. As oil and energy keep going up, people will only become more reluctant to pay heavy taxes to give somebody else a nearly free ride, and yet I see no plans afoot to provide streetcars or light rail on a broad enough basis to serve (and earn the votes of) a majority. No, I submit again that we're still at the urban-jewelry stage.
Agree with some of your comments, especially the part regarding reliability here in the US. Somedays I don't know if the transportation will show up or not. Having lived in Japan for a few years I became accustomed to the train showing up on time, every 10 minutes at the latest and at rush hour every 3 minutes. Adjusting back to the US, where the company/city employees and management just don't care has been rough.
However, you're still ignoring the major premise of TOD - that is, oil will become increasingly unavailable which, given the US dependence upon oil for transport, will cause a crisis. Thus the choice of ignoring rail, an approach we have been able to do up until today, will disappear.
Don't discount the power of need. As you've ridden rail in Japan you realize that an electric rail transportation system can be run well; the Japanese built it because they needed it. Profit will once again be a driver in rail transport in the US when (more than just a small percentage of) Americans need transportation by other than oil.
As for the long standing social stigma in (most of) the US - only time can address that. However, I would argue that it doesn't have to be an either/or situation for most Americans. Automobile (powered mostly by electric) ownership can coexist in society along with greatly enhanced rail.
You're right, this really looks well run.
When I first heard about "pushers" I thought it was a joke :)
Why can I not stop laughing at that picture, and from NZ's comment? Thanks guys for making my day.
If you saw the movie "Sargent York" then you have heard of pushers. One of Sg. York's buddies from Brooklyn, or somewhere in that area, was a "pusher" for the New York subway. That was the first time I ever heard of "pushers". Funny though, I did not think it was a joke, I believed him.
Ron Patterson
A friend of mine worked in Japan for some years as an activist, and she's outspoken even by USA standards; she's also a 6-foot blond amazon with a nice figure. She noted that during the 'compression' phase of getting on the trains, there would be Japanese men who would position themselves so the brownian motion would wind up with their faces in her breasts. And she commented that the manners in japan are such that women are accustomed to being groped and not saying anything, while she would grab errant hands and hold them in the air, yelling "whose hand is this?!"
I think I'd get the heebiejeebies from the lack of personal space and start lashing out like an escaped gorilla... which would only deepen the gaijin stereotype.
...I said god DAMN the pusher man...
That's the Yamanote line in Tokyo, I believe, which I've only ridden in the off hours (thankfully). The picture actually though illustrates my point - they need to get those trains going, so they do what they need to. FWIW, all the lines I used to ride had no need of "pushers".
What I don't understand:
What I've read about Japanese corporate style business is that no-one is quick to leave at official closing time. The guys hang around, trying to impress the boss, until they are told to leave. Then they go hang out someplace until a "respectable" (late) hour to return home. All so it will appear to the wife and neighbors that the guy has an important job and must work late.
What I've read, anyway, which doesn't seem to match up with these pictures of everyone in such a rush to get home that they must jam them onto these trains. So is what I've read incorrect?
Maybe those pictures are people going to work?
Last Train.
Live in Japan and learn to hate those words. The train lines shut down around midnight (it varies from line to line) and don't start up again till the next morning.
Last train is often packed like you see above.
But most major lines are packed like that during the morning rush as well.
BTW, to whomever was complaining about snow and ice, its a major problem for Tokyo trains as well (thankfully we don't that much). Even a hard rain will delay the otherwise supremely punctual trains. When that happens the crush is mind boggling.
I'm a bit claustrophobic. So I have to plan my trips carefully to avoid the above situations.
Don't get me started, I can rant about the over crowded trains here all day long.
Heh. I remember riding this myself in the off hours. The thing that struck me was that I could look out across the car and see over the tops of nearly everybody's head. In the U.S., I wouldn't be able to do that.
I am not a very tall person, and yet when I've been in a gaggle of Japanese tourists I've felt like my name is Lurch.
In five years of living in Tokyo in the late 1990s, and commuting during rush hour, I never once saw the "pushers" that ignorant Americans like to jump up and down about.
I think there were a few in the 1960s, when there were a lot fewer train lines. It's ancient history now.
Lighten up! I've often crammed myself onto a CTA bus during Chicago winters rather than stand outside in the subzero cold.
Ha! Did you ride with your eyes closed?
There are pushers on every morning and evening express train in Tokyo.
Give me a break, you lived here for 5 years and never saw that?
The morning rush had a stronger peak. The afternoon/evening rush was more spread out. I lived in Japan for nine years. In the morning at Kawasaki station I saw the pushers every morning. They did always have to push. Sometimes they helped with coats, briefcases and umbrellas that got caught in the doors.
I read that the train management watched the weather reports and scheduled more or fewer cars based on the expected temperatures. On colder days more people wear overcoats and that takes up space.
Before I went to Japan I had heard that people ride the trains a lot. I had this romantic idea of riding to work in the morning on the Orient Express, drinking my coffee out of a china cup, reading the IHT while the scenery flew by. What a rude awakening was in store for me!
I lived there for five years, commuting to Otemachi (the center of the financial district), and I never saw a "pusher." I asked about them too, and I heard they still exist, maybe on the last train out, but I never saw one. Ever.
I'm not saying it wasn't crowded, but simply that this is something approaching an urban myth, and one that is propogated mostly among Americans who have never been there anxious to feel smug about something they know absolutely nothing about.
I guess you lived in the wrong place! Maybe that's why everyone is deserting the suburbs and moving into the central city these days. There has been a trend towards centralization, apartment living and shorter commutes for about ten years now. A lot of former industrial land has been converted into apartments.
You know, instead of commuting from Kawasaki into Tokyo, you could have got a small apartment in town.
I lived in Fukuoka city (pop 1.3 M) for six years. There were several different train lines run by different companies, as well as the National JR line. We never had pushers. There was no need, although the trains at rush hour were standing room only, unless you were elderly or pregnant (Japanese riders always give up their seats). The system is relatively cheap (a few dollars a day) and very reliable. One result is while many Japanese have driver's licenses, most are paper drivers. I ended up teaching a few people how to drive when they bought their first car at 30 or 35.
In the cities, the train stations are usually pristine temples to capitalism as each one is full of restaurants, hair salons, and other shops, and noodle stands are often set up right outside the entrance. But they're bustling and vibrant. People are always meeting at train stations to go do something. In the countryside, though, you're lucky to get a corrugated tin roof.
Japan is much better prepped for peak oil than we are, with their compact living arrangements, excellent electric public transport system, high mileage cars, efficient appliances, etc. But with a consumption of 11 barrels per person per year, they're still going to take a body blow. 30% solar by 2030? They need to move that percentage up and the year down.
PaulS:
Maybe you'd like to rewrite that post with some actual and useful information in it.. there will be difficulties and problems to address, but every point you address seems so mired in Hyperbole that it unhinges the argument.
"Impenetrable Thicket of Regulations.."
"Hopeless self-inflicted Affordability .."
"50-100 People" -over and over, day and night.
"Inflexible- up and down one track" - .. probably multiple, connecting lines with crossover stops to transfer between lines. Does the 'one-track' reflect the dimensions that your thinking is capable of visualizing? And how many of those replaced Commuting Vehicles were used daily, only going from points A to B, where they might as well have been on a single track?
"Hyper-complicated Trucks.." (Do please explain that one..)
'Ice on the Electrical Contacts'
"urban-jewelry niche .. money-sucking leeches" That would be 'MISTER money-sucking leeches that save energy and make better use of Urban Spaces' to you, bro.
etc, etc...
If you need to rant about something, at least make it make sense, please.
Bob
Saw your reply above.
Sorry you were stuck in a place with a poorly designed or wasteful system, but your comments should have made that point, and not implied that this would extend to all electric mass-transit, all financing options, or all the regulatory hurdles.
It felt like an overly unfair summary and I replied in far too childish a tone. I do apologize for letting it get to me.. Maybe NYC spoiled me with a Transit system and a mostly walkable City, and I forget how UNworkable so many other Munis are likely to be for decades to come..
Best,
Bob Fiske
I was a bus driver from 1973 to 1977 in Minneapolis. I think I know about the short comings of mass transit and have to generally agree with PaulS.
Even in countries that have excellent systems, people still want private cars. If mass transit is so great, how come?
Why do people drive cars if they can?
The cerebellum regards it as a big advantage, pushing past all those other sperm on the way to the Really Big Prize
The cerebrum likes that armored mount, the bigger the better to crush your competitors
The cerebral cortex says, "I will go where I please when I please". Free will made material.
Cars are a very satisfying product. We have already demonstrated we will have quite a lot of people killed to keep them as long as possible.
PLAN, PLANt, PLANet
Errol in Miami
I grew up taking the bus, after our family fortunes crashed. I associated having a car with past good times, although for years having one was unattainable. I didn't have a car until I was 30 and this was not because of belief, it was because I just could not afford one. And driving lessons are not cheap, either.
Once I had a car and saw what a hassle it is, and traveled overseas and our way of getting around was by .... bus! Then I saw that it's pretty nice, really. No parking worries, much MUCH less expense, since you have to walk more to get to and from stops you get to see more, etc.
But the Non-Negotiable American Culture(tm) very highly rewards owning a car. A lot of places won't hire you if you don't have a car, even if you lived right next door to the place. Not owning a car is a good way to be a social pariah too.
My solution right now is to have a small motorcycle, borrow a truck at times, and try to avoid owning a car if at all possible. Since I'm kind of in hide-out mode, and one's driver's license IS one's ID in the USA, I kinda can halfway slip through the cracks. Since I'm in quite a bit of financial trouble, my car insurance would probably be $3000 a year, since car insurance is based among other things on credit score.
I'd like to say there are two happy times in a car-owner's life, the day they buy it and the day they sell it!
Practical: The auto is the preferred mode (obviously). IMO, what this debate misses is that mass transit is most useful and beneficial for those that don't own a car. I realize that in Manhattan, SF, Toronto, NO and possibly a few other NA cities wealthy individuals don't own cars, but by and large mass transit projects in NA are a benefit to the middle and lower financial strata of society. Mass transit predominates in Socialist countries such as Japan, France, Germany. Generally speaking, the USA taxpayer is not in favor of public spending which will benefit the poor or lower middle class-even in Toronto, there is never a shortage of public money for GO Transit (ridden by middle and upper income employees from the far flung suburbs to downtown jobs). The TTC (used by a lot of poor and lower income out of necessity) is always broke-public funding is meagre. The bottom line is Socialist countries have Public transportation systems, Public health care, etc. It might work in the USA, but it is fighting the overall culture. It is the same thing in the corporate culture-top guys laugh about stuff that Japanese CEOs would commit hari kari over or China guys would be hung over. Again IMHO, I predict the USA will address global oil depletion by moving more towards a cultural model prevalent in Mexico or Argentina-an attempt to barricade the important people while throwing the vast majority of the population overboard-I agree that investment on a large scale in alternative energy or mass transit would weaken my theory greatly-we shall see.
Hear Here on us following the Argentinian, Mexican models - indeed the stereotyped Latin American tinpot dictatorship model... let's face it all those were propped up by US interests... they are desperate to bring that experience back home
Ok, so you know the shortcomings. Do you also know the benefits?
When I said I was spoiled by the MTA in NY, that doesn't mean I disparage it's existence. Far from it. You drove a bus at the Height of our Car Crazed years, and just before the US had some of it's first real lessons in why that Design Choice was so flawed. (A predominantly Car-based system).. it's of course predicated on JIT fuel supply for every member of this society. Oops!
Sure people still want cars.. and in an American City, designed to undermine and dismantle the old trolleys, to cut-off pedestrian accessibility, and where bikability is an ongoing putdown of 'small thinking'.. how can you manage without one? I'm happy to have a car, but I'm also happy to leave it parked most of the time, doing my errands on foot or by bike or bus.. I'd like my Car usage to become so sporadic that my Wife, Mom and Brother and I, who all live in the same town.. could own one or two vehicles between all of us, and even rent it out to some friends who don't choose to own one anymore.
The benefits of a city/country with real and functioning Mass Transit won't be obvious and visible until the 'externalities' of fuel costs start really coming home to roost. Until then, the illusion of 'freedom' that a personal ICE vehicle seems to promise will be held aloft by these fantasy-based fuel prices.
Bob
I grew up in Minneapolis in the 70s and rode the bus everywhere. I've probably been one of your passengers.
Regarding trains good and bad, a new service has opened up between Moscow and St. Petersburg, in which the staff may be selected on looks! Hey...
http://en.rian.ru/video/20071229/94702912.html
I'll take a stab at this...there are many ways to poke holes in this argument. For example, I have always found that the train beats the car to downtown Chicago from my house (including the 13 mile drive to the nearest train station) at any time except in the middle of the night when there is no traffic. The train was nearly always better thant the car in a snowstorm- if the roads get icy or snowy in the Chicago region, it can often add hours to the commute. At worst, the Metra trains were 30 minutes late, and usually ran on time even in snow. Furthermore, you do not need to salt railroad tracks, eliminating a significant externality of cars. Even the WBBM, the news radio station around here, with its huge number of car advertisements supporting it, urges you to take transit when it rains or snows, since it is more reliable than driving.
As for your argument that an $3,000,000 vehicle carrying 100 commuters a day is a waste of money, I'll do the math. Lets ignore maintenance costs for now and look at the vehicle lifespan costs. As you might know, a stainless steel constructed light rail vehicle (LRV) or other railcar is likely to have a 50+ year service life. A new personal car, OTOH, optimistically, has a 15 year lifespan before it is consigned to the junk yard. Now assume a car costs $20,000 (the average cost of a car, times 100 cars, and you get 2,000,000.00 spent over 15 years to buy 100 cars. Now, they will have to be replaced 2.5 times over the life span of the LRV, so the cost to have these 100 people to own personal cars is $6 million as opposed to $3 million for the LRV. I would wager the maintenance costs and other externalities of the LRV are far less than that of a ICE car.
Also, as for your fixed rail is a dead end argument, 100 years ago primitive steam trains made the trip to downtown Chicago from where I live in less time than it takes by car today. It can be argued that we are in fact going backwards and becoming less efficient by dissing rail.
Now, I think personal vehicles may have usefulness for short trips and rural areas, but create far too much congestion and externalities in population dense areas, where fixed rail transit and walkable communities make far more sense.
Apparently your extreme libertarian points of view do not equate government with personal expenditures. It does not matter whether you are paying a corporate or government bureaucracy, all are expenses all the same and affect your personal bottom line.