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315 comments on DrumBeat: February 2, 2008

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NeverLNG on February 2, 2008 - 12:05pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

It's really hard to argue with this. Last night I went to a presentation by a young, intense group (Cascadia Rising Tide) about global warming and carbon credit trading. They put on a superb program, and a brave face, but in the end, they were merely left with "hope" that people would wake up to the massive theft and environmental degradation that the various carbon-credit and cap-and-trade schemes produce-- and somehow get their elected representatives to stop it. The situation is even more dire than I had realized, and I'm afraid that in recent years I have always expected the worst.

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GreyZone on February 2, 2008 - 1:03pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Aha! The light bulb goes on!

Now think it through, all the way through. And be sure to not forget this:

People who expect "business as usual" to solve these problems are completely delusional. Chaco Canyon refutes that. The Mayans refute that. Mesopotamia refutes that.

But like good programmed homo sapiens, they will go on believing what they believe until they physically cannot believe it any longer.

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Dryki on February 2, 2008 - 2:33pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

P is for Piranha. Virtually everything coming out of the piranha class will make the situation worse. I qualify with "virtually" only because there is bound to be some mildly positive tertiary consequence.

cfm in Gray, ME

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totoneila on February 2, 2008 - 3:48pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hello NeverLNG,

Cascadia Rising Tide?--cool name! Once this young group realizes that 'hope' is futile: expect a shift to Secession, sequential building and enlargement of biosolar habitats, and ruthless Earthmarine mindset for optimal species protection. Just my speculation, of course.

Consider the Seed Bank now being stocked in Norway-- I suggest that any attempt by starving mobs to eat this vital reserve will be ruthlessly repelled by any and all measures from weaponized smallpox/ebola, to nukes, to snipers picking off adults to little kids-- whatever is required to protect this biota thru the coming postPeak transition.

IMO, Peak Outreach is the greatest info charity to mankind and the protection of biota for future generations the greatest gift. The question to be answered: can we develop a focused conflict method [such as Asimov's Foundations, Earthmarine vs Mercs, biosolars vs detritovore, etc] for optimal Bottleneck Squeeze? Or is a full, diffuse anarchy, grinding Thermo/Gene catabolic collapse, and extinction our fate?

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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NeverLNG on February 2, 2008 - 4:01pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

http://www.risingtidenorthamerica.org/wordpress/category/rising-tide-cas...

Cool group of young people who really care, and for the most part, walk the walk. Personally, I am becoming persuaded by Derik Jensen's idea that "hope is a narcotic" -- but that may be too harsh and cynical. These kids are actually making a difference in the world, and in them lies hope for the human race.

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SacredCowTipper on February 2, 2008 - 8:30pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

This looks cool - any sense of how many members it has? How long has it been around? The Relocalize folks have frowned on our efforts here and WiserEarth.org is huge, but I'm not having the time/sense to get any traction with it ... would be nice to expand horizons and this sounds like an intriguing group.

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ET on February 2, 2008 - 4:16pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Consider the Seed Bank now being stocked in Norway-- I suggest that any attempt by starving mobs to eat this vital reserve will be ruthlessly repelled by any and all measures from weaponized smallpox/ebola, to nukes, to snipers picking off adults to little kids-- whatever is required to protect this biota thru the coming postPeak transition.

There was recently an article in the New Yorker about seed banks. There was(is?) one in Russia (St. Petersburg if I remember correctly) and during WWII one or more of the caretakers actually starved to death guarding the seeds from other starving people.

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hardhat on February 2, 2008 - 8:46pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

You must be referring to Nicolai Vavilov.

An amazing Russian scientist, his story written up
in this Russian site .

No one person has ever done more to preserve biodiversity on Earth than Russian Nikolai Vavilov.

In the early 20th century he had the crucial insight that all the crops we depend on for food originated in only about a dozen regions of the earth comprising only one-fortieth of our world's land area - corn and tomatoes from Mexico, coffee from Ethiopia, wheat in Turkey, potatoes in Peru, soybeans from China, rice from Southeast Asia.

These precious areas are now called "Vavilov Centers" and are scoured for wild variants of these key plants to include in agricultural breeding efforts.

A brilliant scientist, Valivov traveled to over 65 countries in the 1920s and 1930s to gather over 50,000 seed samples. However, he fell afoul of Stalin and the loony communist science czar Trofim Lysenko; in 1940 he was arrested, and in a morbid scientific irony, died of malnutrition in Saratov prison camp in 1943.

In post-Soviet Russia and in the rest of the world where he was never scorned, Valivov is today a true scientific hero.

Valivov's original samples miraculously avoided being eaten by their starving curators during the Siege of Leningrad and became the start of theVavilov Research Institute of Plant Industry in modern-day St. Petersburg.

Their current seed collection of 380,000 gene types is by far the largest in the world and a priceless international treasure.

However, today this seed collection is under a greater threat today than during World War II. The collapse of Russian economy has left the facility short of qualified staff.

Even worse, the Institute has been ordered to evict its current building to make room for government offices and a possible presidential apartment for Russian President Vladimir Putin.

It goes on... reporting on our own Al Gore visiting the site and using American funds to try to save the collection of ancient seeds Vavilov so painstakingly amassed.

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jokuhl on February 2, 2008 - 9:40pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Great Reference, Hardhat, thanks!

As James Thurber said as the moral of one of his tales..

"There's no safety in numbers, or in anything else!"

Bob

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greenish on February 2, 2008 - 5:01pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Bob, I always enjoy your posts and find them upbeat, even if some others may not. I'd like to think that sort of 'planetary patriotism' will emerge but so far I haven't seen it except in a very few outliers.

Once this young group realizes that 'hope' is futile: expect a shift to Secession, sequential building and enlargement of biosolar habitats, and ruthless Earthmarine mindset for optimal species protection. Just my speculation, of course.

Hope so. I think the secession - or at least talk of it - is reasonably likely at some point, but Earthmarines don't exist now when it would be relatively painless and the information is all to be had for the taking, so I really don't see it happening. Talk is one thing, action another. Guess we'll see.

Consider the Seed Bank now being stocked in Norway-- I suggest that any attempt by starving mobs to eat this vital reserve will be ruthlessly repelled by any and all measures from weaponized smallpox/ebola, to nukes, to snipers picking off adults to little kids-- whatever is required to protect this biota thru the coming postPeak transition.

Frankly, I wish they'd hide the damn thing. Seems more pragmatic than squirting ebola on the mobs. Oh, and replicate it in about 3 dozen places including the antarctic.

I have to say that thinking of such 'seed banks' reminds me a lot of the movie "silent running" with Bruce Dern; anyone into doomer porn should see it. Be a good earthmarine recruiting film.

IMO, Peak Outreach is the greatest info charity to mankind and the protection of biota for future generations the greatest gift. The question to be answered: can we develop a focused conflict method [such as Asimov's Foundations, Earthmarine vs Mercs, biosolars vs detritovore, etc] for optimal Bottleneck Squeeze? Or is a full, diffuse anarchy, grinding Thermo/Gene catabolic collapse, and extinction our fate?

THAT should be a keypost... why don't you write it?

Cheers.

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LJR on February 2, 2008 - 7:22pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

You might want to read this opinion about the seed bank before getting all misty eyed. If Engdahl is right - and he certain puts forth a strong case - then this seedbank is all about Monsanto and Dupont hedging their bets as they screw around with plant genetics. Sort of the ultimate DNA backup.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7529

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greenish on February 2, 2008 - 10:27pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The misty eyes are for the preservation of species. The motivation of those doing it quite secondary, though as noted I'd like to see seed banks replicated in many places.

I don't doubt that Monsanto, Dupont, etc have their own calculations, but on brief reading Engdahl comes off as a bit nuts. I have a hard time buying this as part of a Nazi-esque eugenics program.

Saving seeds and species is a good idea.

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NZSanctuary on February 3, 2008 - 8:14pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I agree that it is a good idea - but one thing you can be sure of: those investing companies are not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts (despite what good intentions some individuals might have). They will be seeing the possibility for profit/power down the line somewhere.

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