<DrumBeat: February 8, 2008 The Oil Drum DrumBeat: February 9, 2008>

192 comments on Science 1101 Part 2: Oil as a Liquid Fuel and Expected Peak Oil Impacts

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Gail the Actuary on February 8, 2008 - 12:01pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

It seems like, too, if we actually could produce ammonia from renewable energy, our greatest need for it would be for fertilizer. You point our in your article Ammonia and Biofuels that it would take 77,600 wind turbines to produce the amount of ammonia that we currently use for fertilizer. We would need a huge multiple of that amount to produce the amount of ammonia we would need for any reasonable amount of replacement fuel.

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nh3 on February 8, 2008 - 12:58pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

if we are talking about sustainability then ammonia is better used as fuel rather than fertilizer while biomass is better used as (feedstock for) fertilizer rather than biofuel (unless it is a byproduct from a digester). it will be a huge undertaking to solve our energy problem no matter which way we pick.

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Robert Marston on February 8, 2008 - 1:46pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

We don't need to recover all the ammonia we just need to recover the loss plus demand growth. One other point, did anyone notice the article about the farmer redirecting exhaust from his tractor to fertilize his fields? He noted a 75% reduction in his need for chemical fertilizer.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2006/06/23/mb-farm-exhaust-20060...

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Gail the Actuary on February 8, 2008 - 1:54pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I thought the idea was very interesting, if it could be made to work. I have read several times about people adding carbon to the soil, and increasing fertility, and this seems to follow the same principle.

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Robert Marston on February 8, 2008 - 2:16pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Well, according to the article, the farmer modified his equipment and then noted the lessened need for fertilizer to produce comparable yields. So according to the article it worked. Doesn't seem to be difficult to scale -- slight modification to tractor exhaust -- and works with existing infrastructure.

Short term solution that adds efficiency and reduces demand to a depleting supply. Sounds like a win-win.

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nh3 on February 8, 2008 - 4:15pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

if that indeed works as claimed, wouldn't that also sequester CO2 from the exhaust?

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Robert Marston on February 8, 2008 - 8:22pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

"Carlisle said testing has shown the system collects approximately 95 per cent of his equipment's emissions, and has reduced his need to add nitrogen and other fertilizers."

This seems to imply that it does. But I don't honestly know. It's novel ideas like this that I really like. Hopefully, the process works as claimed and becomes more widely accepted practice.

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fredschumacher on February 8, 2008 - 4:24pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I think it's the nitrogen oxides in the exhaust, of which there are plenty because of a diesel's high combustion temperature, that is doing the fertilizing, not the carbon. If this is so, this could be a huge breakthrough in reducing fertilizer need. NOx must be finding some way to bind to the soil particles and be converted to usable nitrogen through microbic activity. Somebody should find a grad student who's looking for a dissertation research topic. For small grains (wheat, barley, rye) nitrogen is the primary fertility need. Usually there's enough phosphate and potash in the soil that little of those need to be added. (This is not the case for corn.)

It would be limited to air-seeder seed delivery systems, which have become the standard for small grain farming on the plains. Air seeders are a combination of field cultivator and seed injector. Tillage, planting and fertilizing are done in one pass through the field. Seed is kept in a big hopper, towed behind the cultivator, and is injected through plastic hoses, exiting underground just behind each cultivator shovel. Air seeders are usually 40 to 60 feet wide. They can plant over 40 acres per hour.

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fredschumacher on February 8, 2008 - 5:02pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Some more thoughts on what might be happening. NO2 and NO3 don't like to stay in the soil. Perhaps the relatively high 150 F cooled-down exhaust temperature plus the abundant water vapor in the exhaust are helping the NOx stay put. That, in addition with the low ground temperatures (on the Northern Plains small grains are seeded as early as possible after the frost comes out of the ground) and low rainfall (S/W Manitoba gets about 16 inches total moisture per year) could be keeping these gases in place long enough for the nitrogen to get fixed.

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Robert Marston on February 8, 2008 - 8:30pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

My goodness. That's a lot more technical knowledge on the subject than I could hope for. But reading your post does give me a more distinct idea of the problem. I wonder if saturating the seed with NOx is what's causing the fixing/fertilizing to take place? Do you think this is a technique that could be used in the US or other places around the world with certain crops and farm sizes?

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fredschumacher on February 11, 2008 - 2:14pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

It's not saturating the seed; it's going into the soil. The fact that this is being done while seeding the field is incidental. The same technique could be used with any ground preparation that is separate from seeding. I don't know if it would work with no-till row-crops since the injection points are so far apart. Small grain is seeded on 6" to 7" row spacing, and row crops are done on a 22" to 30" spacing. On a wide spacing, as the roots spread out underground beyond the row, they would become nitrogen starved. That's one reason corn is side-dressed with nitrogen fertilizer after it is well leafed out.

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192 comments on Science 1101 Part 2: Oil as a Liquid Fuel and Expected Peak Oil Impacts

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