For better or worse, most of my friends don't have engineering degrees. The person in question has a PhD in English.

But you are right -- there are little nests of geeks among us, and they are the ones who have created technical progress, despite all odds.

Somehow, the process of rational thought has to be moved from the geek world to the "real" world. I don't have a clue about that, since the forces enforcing magical thinking are in charge of education and the media, and are so much more powerful than anything I have been able to do. Not much has changed since the days of the medieval Church that enforced illiteracy -- except that these days they are so much more clever, and have convinced us to choose illiteracy and innumeracy.

Somehow, the process of rational thought has to be moved from the geek world to the "real" world.

I dunno. There are some who would say "geeks" are the ones who got us into this mess.

No man is an island entire unto itself, and nothing exists in a vacuum.

The geeks played their part, as did the scholars, researchers, philosophers, politicians, lobbyists, advertisers, corporations, media, religion, and the vast, unwashed, blissfully ignorant masses.

We haven't been able to wrap our heads around all the various issues, structures, and processes for thousands of years.

Our system is unmanageably complex.

And there is also the problem of rational thought. Humans may have the capacity to be rational, but they do not always behave that way. Humans, inevitably, will do emotional ("irrational") things as well as rational things.

The geeks played their part, as did the scholars, researchers, philosophers, politicians, lobbyists, advertisers, corporations, media, religion, and the vast, unwashed, blissfully ignorant masses. ... We haven't been able to wrap our heads around all ... Our system is unmanageably complex.

Well said.

The human mind is good at not seeing the gaps and boundaries.
How often do you notice the blind spot in your retina?
How often do you notice the edges of your visual field?
Answer: almost never.

We are in constant denial of our every limitation. Why isn't each of us an expert in everything?

We don't question. Instead we have invented a beehive system where each of us is a "specialist" in some narrowly focused aspect of our hive works. One of us is a "politician, lobbyist, advertiser, corporate animal, media maniac, religionist", etc. and yes, even a techno geek.

The geek is no better or smarter than the rest of the worker bees. None of us can see when stuff slips past our blind spots. For example, most techno geeks are blind to social interactions. Dilbert can't see when the management is beating him down yet again. Dogbert wins every time.

____
(click to enlarge --warning, won't work for body parts)

It is not really all that complex. Many are astounded by the results of the process and see complexity while the process itself is actually pretty simple. The ecosystem seems complex but the process that gave us the ecosystem and the diversity of life is not.

Those that are emeshed in the matrix of the technosystem with their specialized functions are truly amazed at the seeming complexity of it all. This perceived complexity supports magical thinking.

geeks attempt to solve whatever problem is put in front of them

they tend to be under-represented in the class of people who prioritize the problems

I don't view it as unreasonable to have a "default" belief in progress, since empirically it has been what's happened in recent memory: My grandmother told stories about life from just before WWII, through the blitz and in to postwar deprivation. My mother had a better quality of life. My sister and I have had even better lives (so far). I'm an educated computer scientist/engineer, and I personally wouldn't bet against pulling a technological rabbit out of the hat. But until I see a multiply verified, production scale rabbit I'm planning for the possibility of a severe energy and resource crunch.

The two things I find most worrying is that (i) people in general won't entertain even the possibility that things may be heading for a crunch, and (ii) almost everyone these days regard it as more important to win an argument than figure out "the truth". Although it'd be disappointing for an engineer not to figure out theoretically that the fridge won't cool the containing room, the unforgivable thing would be to not go grab a thermometer to validate whether a claimed cooling of the room was occurring but just maintain one's argument about what must be happening.

The mistakes are in thinking that progress is inevitable and automatic, in thinking that progress is always a totally good thing (instead of it sometimes being a mixed bag), and in thinking that progress is a one way street, that regress is impossible. Most people operate assuming all three of these are true, but they are not.

This is the most astute observation I have seen on this site. Ever.

Read some thoughts on "progress" from Wendell Berry in this excellent essay about his work:
http://www.ovpes.org/2003/Collins.pdf

And here I thought it was just common sense... and common knowledge.

Crap. We *are* in trouble.

Cheers

Kurt Cobb's just written an article about that mindset - http://resourceinsights.blogspot.com/. Quite a good read.

Where in the room would you hold that thermometer, and for how long would you take readings?

The reality of the situation would be very complex, but it was (presumably) supposed to be a simple demonstration to show how little people apply the basic notion of conservation of energy to the world around them - for example, a large steel and concrete structure being turned mostly to dust by it's own gravitational potential energy...

That's a little over the top, but I think you get the picture.

People generally think that cold and heat are substances that stoves and freezers make. They don't think of a unified theory of heat, not even on an intuitive level

I think I'll hold my thermometer up against the condenser tubes of the refrigerator. :-)

My comment was simply that although it's disappointing when people get arguments based on physics and maths wrong, it happens. I manage to confuse myself in the area in which I'm a highly educated expert every so often. The most fundamental thing is to actively investigate to see if you're right or wrong, and if you turn out to be wrong rethink things. That's what's good about all most of the stuff at the oil drum (ELM, etc): it's based on careful reasoning but people are looking for confirmation/disproof in real world numbers.

Me, if I had thought the refrigerator would cool the room, I'd go to the middle of the room with the thermometer and wait half an hour. If there was no noticeable effect on the temperature I'd be forced to rethink things. (Incidentally, I'm not a physicist but I think it's 2nd law of thermodynamics not conservation of energy that applies here.)

I agree, but my questions were rhetorical. As step back pointed out, you could hold the thermometer anywhere. My point was that the example should be thought of in less complex terms - it was just a simple illustrative example.

"(Incidentally, I'm not a physicist but I think it's 2nd law of thermodynamics not conservation of energy that applies here.)"

The 1st law of thermodynamics still applies to the 2nd law...

It's also the law of inefficient heat engines (Carnot engines) that applies.

The refrigerator is less than 100% efficient. On first look you might assume that the coolness it produces is balanced by the heat emitted from the condenser coils. But not so. The compressor produces additional heat. So do accessories in the refrigerator like lights, defroster mechanism, fans, etc. So the refrigerator is a net heat source, with or without its door being open. :-)

The geeks (and I number myself among them), who are atypical in their pursuit of technical excellence, have contributed tremendously to the problem. They have given these "magical" devices to vast numbers of people who don't understand their principles or the full consequences of their use. In fact, they themselves, in their narrow focus on making and creating things, do not understand the systems into which they inject these devices and cannot apprehend the full consequences to the world when the widget they have worked on multiplies into the millions and billions. The humble refrigerator and air conditioner both have produced vast quantities of CO2 and affected the development patterns of suburbia on a large scale. And even knowing these things, it seems unlikely that the geeks would stop what they are doing, not when there are so many rewards to be made from it.

The technology used in everyday life has advanced so far from anything most people can understand, that they have become used to "magic". There is not much difference between the things so many do all the time to make things happen, and the kinds of things that are used in "Harry Potter".

I do this, and that happens - I do not know why. I move this mouse thing and click on the pretty icons and stuff happens. I say a couple of words and I can talk to someone on the other side of the world through a little thing in my ear. Is that so much different than waving a wand and speaking magic words?

In my opinion it doesn't matter - it all has to do with access to excess energy. That in turn allows enough excess food production capacity that large parts of the society can engage in non-food production pursuits, like science and engineering. Eventually that trend will reverse, the stuff will fail and not be replaced, and the magic of technology will become a memory of past glories.

It's just the conversion of oil into magic.