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39 comments on This, this is helpful...Pat Robertson and Chavez sitting in a tree...

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retro on August 23, 2005 - 5:56am Permalink | Subthread | Comments top
(1) We ought to post the Ten Commandments at every intersection so people like Robertson can remember them better...
(2) John Perkins' book CONFESSIONS OF AN ECONOMIC HIT MAN refers to the resistance of Ecuadorean and Panamanian presidents (Roldos and Torrijos)to US domination and their subsequent "accidental" deaths, and so I have been watching the press about Chavez.  Robertson may be cooperating with the government in preparing a phony and unofficial rationale for some forthcoming accident.  I hope, out of some sense of justice (a foolish and futile goal), that Iraq plus Chavez' popularity will keep him safe.
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Anonymous on August 23, 2005 - 6:23am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
The 'Ten Commandments' won't help you when the real oil peak becomes apparent, a lot of people are going to die and probably murdered for food, oil, posessions, etc.

Killing one lowsy dictator now might be a good alternative.

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Anonymous on August 23, 2005 - 6:55am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
An alternative?  One lousy dictator?

Chavez is an authoritarian president, but he was elected, so the dictator contention seems out, at least for now.

And this is an alternative strategy?  How, exactly, does it prevent peak oil?

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mw on August 23, 2005 - 8:45am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Whether you like Chavez or not, he was elected, and then reconfirmed in a special "recall" vote (where the people could have turfed him) by majority votes of the people there. Venezuela is a federal democracy; everyone over 18 can vote.

Meanwhile, we (the west) support real dictators elsewhere.

Bottom line: Venezuelan oil resources belong to them and their people - they can do what they want with them. In a tight supply environment there will be plenty of buyers willing to pay the price - its capitalism at its finest, no?

As for Robertson, his recent comments just go to show how little he follows his own professed faith. Disgusting!

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Engineer-Poet on August 23, 2005 - 10:53am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
It was reported that the Chavez recall election had widespread irregulatities; for one thing, the tallied results did not match the exit polls and the electronic voting machines could have been rigged without a trace.

If you think that US elections are immune to such tampering, think again.

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Oil Wars on August 23, 2005 - 11:03am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
No, the election was thouroughly audited by two sets of outside auditors - the OAS and Carter center.  No descrepancies were found.  Also, the exit poll you refer to was by a leading opposition organization.  All other exit polls (there were about 10) showed Chavez winning plus pre-election polls had him winning.  Now he polls around 70 to 80%.  Mind you these are by polling firms opposed to Chavez.

http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2005/05/candor-from-petkoff.html

http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2005_07_10_oilwars_archive.html

http://oilwars.blogspot.com/2005/07/yet-more-poll-numbers.html

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Engineer-Poet on August 23, 2005 - 11:30am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
The Carter center went home before paper ballots were tallied.  As I said, e-voting is not trustworthy (there, here, or anywhere).

If Chávez is so committed to democracy, pluralism and separation of powers, why does he sound like Castro and why did he try to  pack the Supreme Court (and succeed) to make it totally subservient to him?

Chávez runs a democracy like any other autocrat:  One man, one vote, one time.

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Oil Wars on August 23, 2005 - 11:55am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
No you are relying on some false information here.  The paper ballot audit was done by the Carter Center and the OAS.  They have the reports detailing it at the bottom of this page. http://www.cartercenter.org/activities/showdoc.asp?countryID=87&submenu=activities

As far as the court being subservient - it said the coup against him wasn't a coup and let everyone go.  Definitely subservient.

And it is not one vote one time.  Chavez himself has stood for election 3 times.  There were local elections just recently.  Congressional ones are in December and Presidential in 2006.  Sorry but Venezuela has more elections than just about anyplace I can think of

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mw on August 23, 2005 - 11:29am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I followed the election news - it seemed to me at the time that the elections were about as clean as you might expect in such an environment.

Whether one agrees with him or not you have to admire how he's playing the politics of the situation - using the country's oil to gain influence (we call that a bad thing yet we do the same thing ourselves in reverse fashion - we seek to gain influence over oil) and spending plans have dramatically raised his popularity inside the country and outside since.

No doubt there will be a showdown of sorts.

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retro on August 23, 2005 - 9:38am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I think Robertson's idea of "taking out" Chavez is typical of far too many fearful, uninformed Americans who see everything only from the perspective of their own immediate fears, concerns, and interests.  It is important to a civilized, democratic society (and world, we hope) that people step back (no pun intended, SB) and see everyone's interest, and consider letting other folks have some of the goods.  Venezuela and its resources belong to the people of Venezuela, and if we have to give up driving Hummers so some Venezuelan peasant can avoid watching his little daughter starve to death, then I say screw every American who "thinks" he has a right to drive a Hummer.  [Indeed, Henry Kissinger has said that every person and nation has a legitimate right to their interests and it's government's job to protect the interests of its people.]

In contrast to Robertson and his ilk, I commend to you the following  sign / graffiti painted on a cement bridge abutment in October, 2001:
"America has been blessed.  Let God bless someone else."  This sign alone, and people's often delighted reaction to it when I describe it, encourages me to be optimistic for our future.  After all, it's how we treat each other that really matters.

There will be a considerable disruption in our future, although we do not know whether it will be quick and sharp or slow enough to adapt fairly easily.  We gleefully consume so much in this country that it seems to me we could cut our consumption by half and barely notice it.  Let's not start shooting madly in all directions just yet.  And Americans love to have problems to solve.  

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Anonymous on August 23, 2005 - 12:38pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Who gives you the right to say who is a dictator or not. How many americans in total elected George Bush. Chavez was elected!

Of course he is a pain in the ass for you because he is getting better deals to explore and sell its oil benefiting his people.

So, at least be honest! Don´t get moral excuses!

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Gryphon on August 23, 2005 - 9:15pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
"One lousy dictator"? Maybe you've been spoonfed by the mainstream media too much. Chavez was democratically elected by the people of Venezuala -- and is very popular there -- even after an attmpted US coup and recall election.

If there's anyone more apt to be called a "lowsy dictator" I can certainly think of one sitting right here in our own backyard.

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ericy on August 23, 2005 - 7:51am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I read in the news that the Saudis had booby trapped their own oil infrastructure - basically as a deterrent to prevent a hostile takeover.  I presume that Chavez will have taken similar precautions.
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Prof. Goose on August 23, 2005 - 9:56am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Ericy: that's right.  Here's a link to that post/story:

http://theoildrum.blogspot.com/2005/05/formative-piece-of-peak-oil-picture-or.html

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mw on August 23, 2005 - 11:17am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I'd not seen that article back in May; funny, I've always assumed that the ideal terrorist attack on Saudi Arabia would include the use of radioactive dirty bombs. Perhaps the Saudis have obliged by installing the devices themselves... only one wonders if another party might one day pull the trigger against their will.

Too much Tom Clancy? Or not enough?

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Anonymous on August 23, 2005 - 9:49am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Chavez has many good ideas - one is oil embargo on the US. For the Americans this would solve nicely the problem of dependence from foreign oil. Oil shales and coal mining would bring lots of new jobs. People would use more bicycles and become healthier. For the rest of us it would bring oil prices down and ample supply. Pat Robertson is of course doing his best to bring Chavez to realize this with Iran and other oil producers. Keep on, Pat!
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