I know this has probably been explained here before, but I haven't seen it. Could someone explain why gas prices do not seem to be following oil prices up? I would have tought that oil at $109 would have moved gas prices to $4 or more, but they seem to be staying in place. Why the disconnect? Thanks.

The $109 price is not of crude oil in the refinery today, but of "futures". They're not spending $109 and getting a barrel of oil, but are buying the right to get a barrel of oil (say) in March 2009.

What people expect to pay a year or more from now does not necessarily affect the price of what's in the refineries and service station pumps today. It's a bit the way if you're paying rent, that mortgage rates or house prices go up doesn't always affect you - in paying rent, you're paying whatever the owner paid for it however many years ago, you're not paying whatever it's worth today. Likewise, when you pay for fuel at the pump you're paying for their costs in the last few weeks or months, not their costs today or a year from now.

If that 68% portion goes up, well the refining 8% is a fixed cost, as is the 13% taxes. So all the oil companies can change is the 11% distribution and marketing.

They have to choose whether to pass the cost onto the consumer, or just make a smaller profit. If they pass the whole cost on, customers might decide to just... buy less! Hell, the customers might even demand the government bring the streetcars back! And then where would the oil companies be, eh? :D

The $109 price is not of crude oil in the refinery today, but of "futures". They're not spending $109 and getting a barrel of oil, but are buying the right to get a barrel of oil (say) in March 2009.

But we're talking about April 2008 delivery price here not 2009.

The $109 price is not of crude oil in the refinery today, but of "futures". They're not spending $109 and getting a barrel of oil, but are buying the right to get a barrel of oil (say) in March 2009.

Naw, the NYMEX price is the spot price in Cushing, Oklahoma right now, or within a few pennies of it.
http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/commodities/energyprices.html

The major retailers follow the RBOB price on the NYMEX pretty closely. If the NYMEX price goes up today, you will see them out tomorrow morning, or sooner, changing their prices. But they are a bit slower to respond when the price falls. They say they must recover their cost. Of course they are making a windfall profit when they mark up the price immediately, regardless of what they bought their last load for. However deliveries to large retailers are made every couple of days so there is never much of a delay.

Ron Patterson

And once again, shawnott's (and others) are left unanswered.

The price of gasoline should be nearing $5 now.

It was made obvious last week as RBOB went to $2.72 and fell back to $2.51.

Even as crude has gone to $109, RBOB is $2.73,

dropping to 2.68 with crude at 107(up $4 over RBOB's
$2.73 price).

And this has been going on since crude topped $80.

Gasoline is still neck and neck with Katrina prices
of Sep 05.

Command Economy. Watch the Indies like Valero, Tesoro,
Sunoco. If I owned them, I would be putting just enough
thru to lubricate the machinery.

Something's got to give.

It was made obvious last week as RBOB went to $2.72 and fell back to $2.51.

RBOB gasoline opened last week at $2.69, fell back on Tuesday when crude fell below $100 then closed on Friday at $2.69 exactly where it opened.

As Robert points out below RBOB does not follow oil exactly and there is no reason to believe it should. The difference is called “The Crack Spread”. [This has nothing to do with Eliot Spitzer. ;-) ] You can actually trade futures and options on the crack spread. It is precisely because the crack spread varies from time to time that futures and options are traded on it.

Bottom line, absolutely nothing unusual is happening.

http://www.nymex.com/crack_spread_overvi.aspx

Ron Patterson

We're looking at two different RBOB's.

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/intraday/RB/48

Mar 4 $2.62 to 2.52.

Mar 5 $2.52 to 2.68.

Mar 6 $2.65 to 2.61.

Mar 7 $2.70 to 2.67.

Mar 10$2.67 to 2.69.

Crude same time period.

$99 to 108.

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/intraday/CO/48

RBOB goes up $.17.

Should've gone up at least $.24. And RBOB always tracks Crude down.

And it's been doing this for at least a year.

That is the 30 minute chart is is basically useless as far as daily opening and closings are concerned. Go one step back to here:
http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/RB/48

Then click on each bar to get the opening and closing for each day. This gives you a much clearer picture and it is the exact same source as yours, except much clearer when you you look at the daily chart rather than the 30 minute chart.

Ron Patterson

Ron,

I thought that you would be interested in this missive from one of my Wall Street correspondents. No link yet. Note that the IEA considers a -7.7%/year decline rate in existing fields to be optimistic. At -7.7%/year, existing Non-Opec fields decline by 50% in about nine years. At -11%/year, they decline by 50% in about seven years.

Bloomberg: Oilfield Decline in Non-OPEC Producers `Exaggerated,' IEA Says
2008-03-11 05:09 (New York)

Sluggish non-OPEC supply, which accounts for 56 percent of
total global oil output, has been explained by a surge in
decline rates of at least 10 percent in 2005 and 2006. This data
is distorted, the agency said, because it doesn't factor in
outages from Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, extended North Sea
field shut-ins, and asset divestments in Russia.

Non-OPEC field decline rates averaged 11 percent between
2000 and 2007, higher than the 10 percent rate in Africa and 9
percent in the Middle East. This should be adjusted to about 7.7
percent which is ``more representative than widely perceived
acceleration'', the IEA said.

Thank you for this info. Very helpful.

''extended North Sea field shut ins''....

What extended North Sea field shut ins?

Just the usual summer maintenance shut downs.

Or maybe they think that the 1999 UK all time peak is just an anomaly.

Thanks Jeff. 7.7 percent is a far cry from the 4.5 percent that CERA came up with.

Ron Patterson

But it's pretty damned close to the 8% posited by the CEO of Schlumberger a few years ago.

Just to let you know this fits pretty well with my sharp drop off model.

Sounds like the oil industry may be having serious decline problems that are not being talked about.

Same I really suspect with production.

In any case with my model things change fast enough that the collated data from the government can't keep up with the situation. Absolute worst case is a 1mbpd drop in production every 4 months.

My absolute worst case is roughly 2x yours, memmel.

2x ? you must be factoring in war to get that I'd think.

The only way I could get steeper is to assume war in Mexico, Venezuela, ME etc.

Its not a bad assumption but impossible to figure.

Also note this did not include Export Land so that would boost it a bit more on the export side.

On this flip side this is assuming basically no large projects come online.
If you get a few of those it would probably make up a good bit of Export Land but not both steep declines and export land.

Assuming war takes out a constant 2-4 mbpd per year plus look at export land for exports only. And really push it you might get 2x.

Obviously a gulf war could take out more but I don't think that including that makes sense for a prediction its outside the scope.

Anyway I'd like to see you assumptions to get 2x mine. Lets see if my guess of above ground factors is right.

Creepy ! Any other facts to corroborate this ?

Christ, that was a great forcast. They nailed the 300bbo that al Husseini laid out last October... from 13 - 14 years ago.

Damn!

Cheers

That's very interesting!

EIA's March short term report was just released.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/steo/pub/contents.html

It said that "0.7 mbd of non-OPEC supply growth is projected in 2008, revised down by 0.2 mbd from the last Outlook. This change represents a revision to expected project schedules as well as a re-evaluation of decline rates at existing fields." Assuming that 0.5 mbd of this 0.7 mbd is biofuels growth, this gives 0.2 mbd growth in crude and NGLs. Undoubtedly further project delays will round this number down to 0 mbd growth.

Gross peak oil additions from wiki oil megaprojects 2008 is 4.1 mbd for crude/NGL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Megaprojects/2008
However, only about 3 mbd of new production should occur since the 4.1 mbd refers to peak which can be delayed by several years.

Non-OPEC-13 crude/NGL production for 2007 was about 46 mbd. The adjusted EIA forecast non OPEC 13 growth of 0 mbd implies that the "EIA adjusted" non OPEC decline rate is 6.5% (3 mbd/46 mbd).

If the IEA's decline rate of 7.7% is used then non-OPEC-13 2008 crude/NGL estimate is 45.5 mbd, a drop of 0.5 mbd from 46 mbd in 2007. My latest forecast, updated for the recent EIA actual data, also predicts that non-OPEC-13 2008 crude/NGL is 45.5 mbd.

This is kinda interesting.

Since my worse case scenarios imply decline rates of 7-12%.

10% of 45.5 = 4.54 mpd

So if OPEC holds stead and Non Opec decline rate is closer to 10-12% then
we end up down. If Opec is actually 7% then for sure down.

So ending 2008 down 4mbd is not impossible.

My best guess ( gut feeeling ) is 2mbpd down by the end of 2008.

These propaganda bulletins by the IEA underscore its uselessness for the task it was designed for. Production in Russia has not stalled/dropped because of asset divestments. What drivel.

The mean age of oil fields is increasing simply because new discoveries are too small and too few. Oil field decline rates do not shrink or stay constant with age, they increase. So by mathematics, the mean decline rate in exiting world production centers is increasing. New production comes on stream intermittently so in some years the underlying decline becomes more apparent. The IEA is spewing nonsense just like CERA.

At some point, the oil companies may "bring the streetcars back" -- just as they destroyed them at the beginning of this sorry mess. At some point, they will run the "streetcar lobby", just as they run the highway lobby of today. I look for this transition quite soon, in fact.

The streetcars were destroyed when the people in Santa Monica and elsewhere started buying cars and stopped riding the streetcars. I once rode the streetcar (interurban) from Dallas to Waco during its last year. It was miserable compared to the bus. Of course it is fun to blame the oil companies for everything.

Conspiracy??

http://1134.org/stan/ul/GM-et-al.html

Of course, there are numerous stories about how this happened. In the short term, cars won, and the winners write the history.

In the long term, automobiles will prove to be an evolutionary dead end. The final word is not in. Probably not a conspiracy -- just mass delusion and stupidity. And cupidity.

opinions vary on this point, Robert, but it is what it is. Extreme and coordinated tactics where documented and proven:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

The Great American Streetcar Scandal, also known as the General Motors streetcar conspiracy, was the sequence of events in which General Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California and Phillips Petroleum formed the National City Lines (NCL) holding company, which acquired most streetcar systems throughout the United States, dismantled them, and replaced them with buses in the early 20th century

contributing causes did exist of course:

Most transportation historians, particularly economists, point to a number of factors that cast serious doubt on the notion that the National City Lines consortium was the primary driver of the failure of streetcar systems and the adoption of buses. These include financial considerations; congestion; political factors; road construction; and the nature of suburbanization.

http://www.lovearth.net/gmdeliberatelydestroyed.htm

Even though the refiners are using oil they bought at yesterdays price, they know they will pay more for the next batch. If I owned a million gallons of gasoline, I wouldn't sell it based upon my sunk cost, but at what the market will bare. If I bought oil last month, and its price has gone up/down, that is a gain/loss on the commodity, the gain/loss on refining it is an independent manner. During the last several months supply/demand for gasoline has made it very difficult for refiners to make a profit. I think this is an effect of high (and increasing) oil prices. Demand is reduced, but the nations refining capacity remains the same.

In January of 2007 RBOB gasoline on the NYMEX hit $1.40 a gallon. Today it just hit $2.71. I think gasoline has been following crude oil.

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/RB/W

Notice the huge move up last spring of over $1.00 per gallon. Retail gasoline prices usually average about half a buck higher than RBOB gasoline on the NYMEX. Perhaps it was a little higher than that last January. In other words it was slightly overpriced then and is now more fairly priced.

Ron Patterson

And I know it hasn't.

Chart it for us.

One yoy, from Mar 07 to today.

I agree, there has been a disconnect and I think it will be rectified this summer. You can plot Crude on Retail Gasoline at Gas Buddy website. I am guessing $.50 of retail gas for every $10 of crude so at $110 we will have $5.50 this summer.

plot some prices

Your "guess" is at odds with Kiashu's graphic above, which would suggest that about $2 out of a $3 price for gasoline is for the crude. Assuming that the crude delivered to produce gasoline sold in Jan 2008 cost $80/barrel(*) that would mean that every $10 in the crude price adds roughly $0.25 to the retail gasoline price, give or take. So (after adding back the $1 that goes to things other than crude) at $110 oil we might end up with roughly $3.75 at the pump sometime in the coming months. National US average, of course; in my neighborhood, that would mean $4.25 at the cheap station.

(*) $80 a barrel seems a decent enough rounded off average for the few months preceding Jan 2008. Note that if my guess is too low, then gasoline prices will increase less because of oil price increases. If my guess is too high, then gasoline prices should rise more.

are we neglecting the fact that the price a refiner pays is adjusted for oil gravity and sulphur content ? that NYMEX posted price is for wti. (edited)

Could someone explain why gas prices do not seem to be following oil prices up? I would have tought that oil at $109 would have moved gas prices to $4 or more, but they seem to be staying in place. Why the disconnect?

Gasoline inventories are at record high levels in the U.S. That has made it more difficult to pass on price increases. When inventories are where they are, and you try to pass on a price increase, a lower cost competitor may steal your customers.

Last year, we had the opposite situation. Falling inventories mean rising prices. Nobody could steal customers, because nobody had any excess product.

However, it is getting painful enough that prices are increasing now. The national average gasoline price has gone up now for 3 weeks in a row.

The only reason gasoline stocks are at record is
ethanol.

Here's the two Weekly price charts courtesy
TFC:

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/RB/W

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CO/W

The key numbers:

Crude $75 down to $55, then up to $108 today.

RBOB $2.40 to 1.40 then up to $2.70 today.

All of this starting the second week in June 07 with that
huge "gasoline" increase.

Now we know today that 420 000 bbl of ethanol have been "added" every day since then.

Now we know today that 420 000 bbl of ethanol have been "added" every day since then.

Mcgowanmc, do you have any links to reliable sources who say that ethanol is included in the EIA's gasoline inventory figures?

I've been hearing this as the explanation for the high price of gasoline in the face of high inventory, and I've been hearing it from knowledgeable people. It would make sense. But no one can give me a good primary source.

US Petroleum Supply, Ethanol, and State of the Industry - API ...
According to API, “The figures cited here include gasoline that contains growing amounts of blended ethanol, amounting to well over 400000 barrels per day ...
www.eclipsenow.org/archives/561

"6. Ethanol
According to API, “The figures cited here include gasoline that contains growing amounts of blended ethanol, amounting to well over 400,000 barrels per day in 2007. If ethanol is excluded from the calculations, total domestic oil deliveries for the year would actually have shown a half percent decline.”
Analysis Based on EIA data, I would estimate US ethanol production would amount to 420,000 barrels per day in 2007, which is consistent with API indications. Last year’s US ethanol production amounted to 319,000 barrels per day, based on EIA data, so the difference is about 100,000 barrels a day. The 100,000 barrels per day increase during 2007 is about 0.5% of total petroleum products supplied of 20.7 million barrels a day."

Thank you very much, mcgowanmc. This is extremely helpful.

Straight from API:

http://www.api.org/Newsroom/record-high-us-fuel.cfm

"The demand data includes an increase in the amount of ethanol blended into gasoline, which averaged more than 400,000 barrels per day. Excluding ethanol, which accounted for nearly five percent of all gasoline sales during the year, total domestic oil deliveries in 2007 actually fell half a percent. An estimated 6.7 billon gallons of fuel ethanol were used by refiners in 2007, some two billion gallons more than the 4.7 billion gallons required by law but more than two billion gallons less than the recently-passed requirement for 2008."

The only reason gasoline stocks are at record is ethanol.

I guess I am not following that logic. As late as December, gasoline stocks were very low. They took off in December on the back of very strong gasoline imports - attracted by very high gasoline prices. The ethanol you cite is ethanol that went into the gasoline pool, not necessarily ethanol that went into inventories.

Wouldn't ethanol be included in blending components? (That is what I'm hearing from other analysts.)

It is, and it is the reason that the blending component portion of inventories has increased. But the reason for the record high inventories has nothing to do with ethanol. Look at the gasoline inventory chart (hover over the blue gasoline link under "stocks", bottom-left) at:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp

Inventories have been on an almost vertical climb since mid-December. That's not ethanol; that's imports.

It's baffling.

I did notice that gasoline imports seem to be falling off in recent weeks. http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip_gasoline.html#production

Thanks to all the answers. I guess my confusion has been in my thinking: Katrina = $80 oil = $3 gas. Now $109 oil still equals $3 gas (roughly).

So if it is all about inventories... doesn't the cost to produce those inventories increase? I guess I am thinking of it as a pipeline... we take oil out of the ground and produce gasoline, even if it goes to inventories. If the price of that oil goes up, so should the end product. Sorry, I still have a lot to learn.

If the price of that oil goes up, so should the end product.

This is why refining margins have evaporated. They were around $40/bbl last year. Right now they are $5/bbl (last time I checked).

Thanks. That makes a lot more sense now.

I see the shrinking crack spread more disturbing than price. How small can it get before small refiners stop refining and true shortages arrive? The Chinese commies can outbid us for crude and absorb a negative crack spread through say duties on exports or the sale of bonds. The big oil companies can ride out a negative crack spread on the back of their recent profits. Parts of the country at the end of the delivery chain and unable to buy enough fuel to make that last mile worth it may suffer the fate of Dakota farmers last fall. Crops may not get planted soon enough and today's $5.50 corn price may look like a bargain next fall.

How small can it get before small refiners stop refining and true shortages arrive?

They are cutting back now. The least efficient producers will cut back the most, and some will go out of business if margins continue to remain low. That's the nature of the refining business. Perhaps we need a windfall profits tax that gives money back to refiners when the windfall disappears. :-)

Refining margins do occasionally turn negative. However, I don't think refineries can exit the market in a way that would create shortages. The least efficient producers will exit the market if demand falls below the point at which they are able to sell. However, if there were anything like shortages caused by refinery shutdowns, the margins would increase again and thiose that shut down would resume production.

But but KSA claimed the problem was a refining capacity issue ?

I'd have no problem believing them if I didn't have to swallow a whole new belief every six months. I wish they would just blame it on the horoscope for the week so at least the story is consistent.

that's why valero is slagging off 40% of their US refining

Partly because they are now selling winter blend gasoline. Many refineries in the world can ship winter blend gasoline to the US. Further, we are now in the time of year when winter blend is in the process of being flushed out of the system (no longer legal in the spring). Summer blend gasoline is more difficult to produce and more difficult for foreign refiners to make and ship into the US. Therefore, much lower margins on winter blend, especially at the end of the season - to be followed shortly by much higher margins on summer blend. You know, the supply/demand thing.

True.

I've also think that the Goldman re-weighting of the GSCI in August 2006 may continue to be a factor.

formula-managed commodities index funds have $100bn in assets, of which GSCI-linked funds account for $60bn

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/a378d634-b54b-11db-a5a5-0000779e2340.html

Goldman's reweighting forced funds to sell 73% of their gasoline futures to conform to the new index. http://www.gata.org/node/4404

Gasoline still has only roughly 60% of the weighting now that it had in 2006. (4.88% now: http://www2.standardandpoors.com/portal/site/sp/en/us/page.topic/indices... 7.98% in 2006: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs_Commodity_Index)

The reweighting appears to have caused a permanent distortion in the price of gasoline relative to the price of oil. I don't think it would be too tin-foil-hat to say that a political decision was made to sacrifice refineries to make gasoline cheaper for consumers for as long as possible.

$109 today, three Yergins ($114) by the end of the month?

You are right about a disconnect. Local taxes are 64 cent/gallon, NYMEX is at $2.72 and I can buy retail gas anywhere for $3.29, a few stations in the 'burbs 10 or even 20 cents less. Guess the distribution costs are negative.