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286 comments on DrumBeat: March 27, 2008

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ZoneDancer on March 27, 2008 - 11:53am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Do you really want mob control of our infrastructure?

I think a better idea would be to put 'breakers' on the lines that supply the lower voltage lines. Maybe when they keep popping their breakers they will learn that their infrastructure needs to be upgraded.

I was watching the Charlie Ross show yesterday with the head of Shell America on it. He was saying that the pipelines in the Northeast haven't been upgraded in 30 years. (He also said we haven't build a new refinery in 30 years which is know is technically correct but we have done massive upgrades to the ones we have)

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Joseph Palmer on March 27, 2008 - 12:03pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

No new refineries in 30 years, and specifically the last seven, is the best economic and political evidence of peak oil.
If the oil majors really wanted and needed a new refinery, they would have seen a historic opportunity to push it though the Bush administration.
299 days, 1 hour and 56 minutes is simply not enough time, the door is closed.

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john15 on March 27, 2008 - 12:22pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

No new refineries in 30 years, and specifically the last seven, is the best economic and political evidence of peak oil.

It's the best evidence that we had massive overinvestment in refineries 1970s and 1980s and when the oil bubble collapsed it didn't make sense to build refineries.

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Pieter on March 27, 2008 - 1:13pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Th US has a trading system in place for sulphur dioxide emission. This trading system has a tendency to favor existing installations over new build installations. So 'repairing' or 'refitting' an existing intsllation is chaeper than building a new one if one wants more capacity. And before you ask, refineries are major sulphur emitters.

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eric blair on March 27, 2008 - 4:22pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Interesting tie to this - On the watt podcast #75 they discuss how the coal power plant reduction happened.

Lower heat content, lower sulfur coal was shipped in VS using 'local' higher heat, higher sulfur coal.

Thus lower sulfur emitted, higher CO2 emissions.

WHEEE!

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enemy of state on March 27, 2008 - 10:08pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Now I'll bet they wish they installed scrubbers (or whatever it is that captures the sulfur), and had "waste" sulfur to sell. Last I heard it was something like $900/ton.

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rainsong on March 27, 2008 - 6:54pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

No new refineries in 30 years? Existing refineries have been expanded as this is less costly than applying for environmental permits to build new ones. New refineries were being built overseas also. If you believe in peak oil you will find that a time is coming when there will be enough refineries, but not enough oil to refine.

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totoneila on March 27, 2008 - 7:22pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hello Rainsong,

Good points--I agree, but also without FFs, there additionally won't be much recovered sulfur for processing I-NPK and all the other critical uses of sulfur and sulfuric acid [not much is mined anymore]:

Powerpoint PDF on Sulphur:

http://www.choa.ab.ca/documents/Apr12TL-ppt.ppt

Recall that Gazprom wants to raise sulfur prices Sevenfold in 2008:

http://www.meed.com/petrochemicals/news/2008/02/maaden_to_dominate_ferti...
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...Costs in Russia, a key rival, are set to escalate dramatically, with Gazprom set to raise sulphur prices more than sevenfold in 2008. Maaden, in contrast, will have access to cheap local sulphur.

"Maaden's sulphur will be cheaper than most," says Barrie Bain, director of Fertecon, a UK-based fertiliser consultancy. "But the phosphate rock will be expensive compared with Morocco and US producers who have their own rock. It depends on how Maaden accounts for the capital cost."
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The postPeak battle to be a price-maker vs a price-taker is on! If I was an FF-exporter: I could further juice my profits by removing the sulphur first to later sell to constrained importers at a high profit. Why let the importing refineries make the sulfur bucks$$ when they refine the crude?

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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totoneila on March 27, 2008 - 7:47pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Recall my often posted phrase:

Sitting in the dark is pure luxury compared to starvation.

Another way to rephrase it is:

Taking away a person's gasoline or electro-juice just pisses them off, but take away their food or their NPK-ability to grow food--now your talking CONTROL.

Consider how easy it was to control Tadeusz Borowski, #119198:

http://dieoff.com/page226.htm
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THIS WAY FOR THE GAS, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN

....Around here whoever has grub, has power.
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ontario on March 27, 2008 - 3:13pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The new standard for local utility distribution voltage is 27,600 Volts (27.6 kV). Most utilities are upgrading to this voltage.
Old systems have a real mix; 13.8 4.4 etc. Line losses are proportional to the square of the line current. Double the current, quadruple the line losses. Upgrading a distribution system is not an easy task. That entails replacement of thousands of poles, lightning arrestors, transformers, autoreclosures, SCADA switches.

Distribution systems already have "breakers" installed throughout to protect equipment. They are in the form of substation circuit breakers, distribution line autoreclosures, and fusing at customer step-down transformers.

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286 comments on DrumBeat: March 27, 2008

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