I think their scenario is unrealistic. What they're saying is that a decline in the world's oil supply will prevent a lot of CO2 from getting into the atmosphere if coal is deliberately restricted.

So they're saying that we'll go sick and just burn all the oil we have, limited only by its physical availability, but have great restraint with our coal.

It just doesn't make sense. If we go sick with oil, why wouldn't we go sick with coal? If we have restraint with coal, why wouldn't we have restraint with oil?

Surely as oil becomes scarce we'll see more use of coal?

For reference, the IPCC 2004 report told us that 21st century emissions of 1,800Gt CO2e would give us 450ppm, and 4,100Gt would give us 1,000ppm.

However, already from 2001-7 we've added 315Gt, taking these levels to 1,500Gt and 3,800Gt CO2e.

But only 55% of emissions come from burning fossil fuels. It's fair to assume that other contributions will at best remain in proportion. In practice they'll probably rise; the places short of fossil fuel will probably cut down more forests, and deforestation already contributes around 17.5% of greenhouse gases.

So for example, with our current 49Gt CO2e emissions annually, and with 17.5% or 8.6Gt coming from deforestation, well 8.6Gt for 92 years is 789Gt CO2e. That is, just cutting down forests pretty much takes us to 450ppm, forget about the fossil fuels.

Hansen and Kharecha of course do say that there should be forestation programmes; but again that suggests planning and restraint. Why are we going to have planning and restrain for forests and coal, but not for oil?

But looking just at the fossil fuels, being optimistic and assuming they rise or decline in that same proportion, so that fossil fuels remain 55%, we can set the 450ppm level as requiring the burning of fossil contributing around 800Gt, and the 1,000ppm level requiring around 2,000Gt CO2e.

So burning fossil fuels and adding 800Gt of CO2 will give us trouble but not catastrophic, but if we hit 2,000Gt CO2 from them then all bets are off.

Considering our reserves and the emissions burning them gives, we have,

Oil reserves of 1317Gbbl@ 450kg CO2e/bbl give 593Gt CO2e
Coal reserves of 998Gt@ 2,350kg CO2e/t give 2,854Gt CO2e
Natural gas reserves of 6,074T cu ft@ 52.2kg CO2e/1,000 cu ft give 316Gt CO2e
For total emissions of 3,763Gt CO2e

Which is to say, if we burn up all our reserves we'll completely screw ourselves. Well, we all knew that already.

Current coal consumption is 6Gt, oil 31Gbbl, and gas 100T cu ft.

To keep contributions by 2100 under 800Gt requires a decline every year in use by 4% in each of the three. We would then have used only 15% of coal reserves, 55% of oil reserves, and 39% of gas reserves. It would mean that over any decade, use would decline by a third. This seems remarkably restrained over a period of 92 years.

To keep contributions under 2,000Gt requires only a decline of 1% annually. This is essentially 10% in any decade. This seems more plausible.

Hansen and Kharecha's scenario with one lot of fossil fuels being guzzled up like mad and another lot being restrained makes no sense. More plausible is that use of all of them increases, or all declines.

Only a strong decline - of 4% each year for 92% - gives us eventual CO2 of around 450ppm; business as usual or a slight decline of 1% annually takes us past 1,000ppm. Burning the lot in this century means catastrope.

Now, I've previously pointed out that any particular individual in the West can make their impact only about one tonne of CO2, down from the 12 tonnes which is average for the US and Australia, or 5-10 tonnes for most of Europe. For everyone to be able to do this might take a decade or so of improvements in renewable energy availability, mass transit and so on.

Things individuals can control like transport and diet make up about half of all emissions. So total Western emissions could decline by around 40-45% over those ten years without any significant discomfort or decline in lifestyle for the average Westerner. The other half of society contributing emissions, in industry, commerce and agriculture, would then have to get their shit together and act.

I believe oil is a much higher quality, liquid energy source with fewer substitutes than coal, which is used so much for electricity. So I personally don't find it so absurd to have restraint for coal but not for oil. We have to get off the sauce sometime, why not start with coal?

Anyhow, thanks for your detailed analysis here.

And there are large coal reserves in the US and Russia. So if only two countries agree to stop using coal, the whole planet is saved (in a sense). The US and Russia have the tech to deploy other energy sources, while the Middle East has most of the oil and gas in tiny countries with little other way of earning a living.

BP reckons [1.5Mb pdf, but has oil and natural gas reserves, consumption, etc, so worth the download] that the world coal reserves are,

US, 247Gt
Russia, 157Gt
China, 115Gt
India, 92Gt
Australia, 79Gt
South Africa, 49Gt
Ukraine, 34Gt
Kazakhstan, 31Gt
Poland, 14Gt
Brazil, 10Gt
Or 828Gt of the world's 909Gt. The USA and Russia are 404Gt of this, and so are a substantial part of it. But the remaining 501Gt is more than enough to knock us over the edge.

Or if you want to consider production, the US and Russia together produce 1.363Gt of coal annually, leaving 4.832Gt of production annually. This gives us 13.8Gt CO2e of the world's 49Gt of greenhouse gas emissions each year; if carried over 92 years would give us a total of 1,270Gt CO2e. Again, that's plenty.

It'd need to be a truly multinational effort, I'm afraid. US and Russia alone won't cut it.

Thanks for digging up the numbers Kiashu.

I think there are few signs the US and Russia will stop extracting coal - even though the banks are starting to make it hard for would be coal burners to build new power plants in the US, Peabody and co are rapidly stepping up exports (see the NY article HO referred to in his coal post yesterday) - so it seems that coal will likely find its way up a smokestack somewhere unless the brakes are applied on a global basis.

Plus every man and his dog seems to be experimenting with coal to liquids (or at least thinking about doing so) now.

To be fair to Jamais and Hansen, they are simply outlining scenarios - unfortunately the BAU scenario looks the most likely by far at this point, which indicates that peak oil won't save us from global warming - far from it...

Optimism -->
Excitement -->
Thrill -->
Euphoria -->
Anxiety -->
Denial -->We're here. IMHO
Fear -->
Depression -->
Panic -->
Capitulation -->
Desperation -->
Hope -->
Relief -->
Optimism -->

"...which indicates that peak oil won't save us from global warming."

W/O oil coal doesn't get mined. If mined, it doesn't get shipped.

Collapse will decide how quickly AGW accelerates.

W/O oil coal doesn't get mined.

NAw, there is plenty of electric mining Eq. Getting the coal from the mine to the plants - that *MAY* need oil.

Which part of "coal to liquids" don't you understand ?

Does the phrase 'electric vehicle" mean anything to you ?

Why do people continually ignore existing, practical technology and come up with this "we need (crude) oil to mine coal, grow crops etc etc" ?

Talk about denial...

Kiashu, thanks for this - you've articulated exactly my trouble with the report - while I agree with Jason it would be enormously wiser to leave the coal in the ground, and that all efforts should be made on that front, I have real doubts about whether it is possible as oil prices drive people in precisely the opposite direction. A friend of mine who sells heating devices tells me they are seeing a renewed interest in home coal stoves by people who can't afford to heat their houses with oil (the Northeast is heavily oil dependent for heating, unlike the rest of the US).

I appreciate Hansen's work, and I think the analysis is valuable, but I think that if we can not burn the coal, we can not burn the oil, and if we can't not burn the oil, we'll burn the coal too, horribly.

Sharon

while I agree with Jason it would be enormously wiser to leave the coal in the ground, and that all efforts should be made on that front, I have real doubts about whether it is possible as oil prices drive people in precisely the opposite direction.

I think it's quite possible that people will decide to leave the coal in the ground. I just don't see why they'd pump the oil to the limits of what's physically possible, yet at the same time agreeing to keep the coal in the ground.

Either we have restraint with all fossil fuels, or with none.

And they completely miss deforestation, just blandly assuming that we could have some grand world forestation campaign. The fact is that people's efforts to stop deforestation came decades before any ideas about climate change were about. And yet still 17.5% of greenhouse gas emissions are from deforestation, illegal logging is rife and responsible for more than half the logging done in Asia, and so on.

That does not to me suggest that deforestation could stop, let alone be reversed. This is especially true in the Third World where most deforestation takes place, because... well, let's imagine that we stop pumping oil and gas and digging up coal. We in the West are wealthy enough to put in wind turbines and the like to make up for it. But what's Senegal going to do? Or Colombia? They'll cut wood and burn it, that's what.

So any effort at reducing greenhouse gases has to look not only at burning fossil fuels, which are after all just 55% of all emissions, but also at deforestation, and so on. If we don't want these countries to keep chopping down their forests, well first up we need to stop buying their timber, and second we need to give them an alternative. I'd begin building wind turbines not in Australia or the US, but in Senegal and Colombia and the like.

This would also help with rapidly rising in emissions countries like China and India, to show that you can have a good quality of life without burning fossil fuels.

Either we have restraint with all fossil fuels, or with none.

And they completely miss deforestation, just blandly assuming that we could have some grand world forestation campaign.

I think you are misunderstanding Hansen's intent. I believe (I have no direct connect to the man to test my hypothesis) the paper's intent is to show that restraining CO2 is possible. I don't think it is intended to show THE way, or THE best way to do so. They are outlining how the world's climate **can** be stabilized. Assigning to them comments such as "blandly assuming" shows lack of insight into the man and his work. He is well aware he is talking about massive shifts in economy, behavior, politics, etc.

Cheers

Anyone can paint such a scenario. That's no challenge. The challenge is to present one which is plausible.

It's not plausible that we'll burn as much oil as we possibly can, yet have restraint with the coal, and regrow the forests. It's like imagining that a burglar will take your DVD player but not the cash sitting next to it. Either he refrains from theft, or he gets right into it.

Had H&K described a scenario in which all fossil fuel use was restrained, my response would be, "that's nice - how?" But they didn't do that, they presented a confused and implausible scenario.

The senarios in that paper are a little dated now. You might be interested in the action plan outlined in this talk given in February in Bloomington, IL. http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/2008/illwesleyan_20080219.pdf
In the same directory you can find the draft paper I was responding to with the coral post at the Real Energy Blog.

Chris

The thing is that there are quite a few coal-to-gas projects out there, and LPG and LNG conversions for cars you can do in a day for a couple of grand, and there are a growing number of gas-fired electricity generators out there.

So it's quite easy to imagine a number of scenarios where oil consumption drops due to peaking and coal consumption more than makes up for it.

I think their scenario is unrealistic. What they're saying is that a decline in the world's oil supply will prevent a lot of CO2 from getting into the atmosphere if coal is deliberately restricted.

It's delusional. It ignores the facts on the ground: we're in the middle of a nearly unprecedented coal boom. The reason - the world is desperate for more energy. This current massive coal fired generation building boom and massive expansion of coal exporting is meant to satisfy growing demand for energy that has nothing to do with the peak oil transportation energy challenge. Guess how many of the coal-fired plants now under construction around the world or in planning have incorporated carbon capture and sequestration technology.

Imagine what this coal boom will be like when peak oil hits. Desperation to burn coal will rapidly ramp up into a frenzy. The one part the report gets right is that coal may peak sooner than many expect.

Didn't Kjell Aleklett find that even with coal, there's still not enough carbon in the ground to get to 500ppm?

I don't think he found that at all. Their guess about coal reserves is just a guess though perhaps more educated than some. They note that the energy value of U.S. coal may already have peaked, but that's not the same as a CO2 peak. They surmise that Russia will be the last great coal exporter, but they don't know how much coal Russia will be able to mine and produce. No one can yet determine with any kind of accuracy when the coal peak will come.

Coal is the industrial energy source of both first and last resort. The re-electrification of transportation will preserve industrial civilization for a while. Coal will not be able to cover both baseline electrical demand plus that project. Nuclear, wind and concentrated solar power will play a role. The real energy collapse comes not when oil peaks but when coal peaks.

Fair enough, thanks.

The papers on energy reserves and how much CO2 they would produce and, thus, their effect on climate were all done prior to Hansen. et al.'s new work on sensitivity, so those papers need to be reconsidered through that new constraint.

Cheers