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133 comments on Obama's New "Big Oil" Ad: Does He Have It Right or Wrong?

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olepossom on March 29, 2008 - 8:59pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The oil companies are just tradesmen? They don't lobby, fight for tax breaks, cheat tribes and governments on royalties, fight every effort to stop catastrophic climate change, topple governments to control new fields?

But Obama did not call the oil companies evil. He did say that they are making a lot of money. And my tax rate last year was higher than Exxon's. Yours probably was too.

Remember, we have had seven years of government in the United States by oil industry people, whose solution to the decline in oil supplies was to invade Iraq. That solution was the swrong one. Obama's solution is not only different, it is more likely to work for America and for the planet.

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tomc on March 29, 2008 - 9:09pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The oil companies are just tradesmen?

Obviously

They don't lobby, fight for tax breaks,

Yes

cheat tribes and governments on royalties

mostly I'd say no.

fight every effort to stop catastrophic climate change

Not at all

topple governments to control new fields?

Not at all.

Let's review your points again and see who's doing what :

Trade in oil

Governments (esp. the wrong kind of governments e.g. saudis, russia, ...)
Oil companies
Rebels
Islamic terrorists

They don't lobby, fight for tax breaks

All companies do this, or try this. It's neither unexpected, nor wrong.

cheat tribes and governments on royalties

That would mostly be their own governments, not oil companies.

fight every effort to stop catastrophic climate change

That would be us "the people". Have you turned in your car yet ? (because moving more than, say 40 kilometers, daily is unsustainable, we don't currently have the (sustainably produced) energy for it).

topple governments to control new fields?

Again that would be us "the people". How much energy do you use ? What would you say to the government if that energy was cut (socialist policy) or priced out of your range (capitalist policy) ?

Exactly ... you'd scream bloody murder. Especially once people start dying because of heating issues.

So it is "us" who are doing it. Not just americans, not just europeans, not just ... but just about everybody everywhere, including the people living under these thuggish oil governments (which they sometimes have elected themselves). And it is you too. And me too. But you're too self-absorbed to see that you are part of the problem.

If the solution is energy conservation (as opposed to nuclear), then you're part of the problem.

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olepossom on March 29, 2008 - 9:25pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Welcome to the Oil Drum Community. Some of us, like me, have been peak oil aware for nearly a decade, and have been working hard in that time to spread the word, and to reduce our own energy footprint.

To address some of your comments: I have turned in my car, for a bicycle, public transit, and an electric scooter, the EVT-168. Get one yourself; I love mine. I'll admit that I am self-absorbed, but my focus now is on reducing my carbon footprint to 20% of what it was not too long ago. I am fairly far along in that process, and without a significant reduction in the "American dreamness" of my lifestyle. I know exactly how much energy I use. And, with about 18 more months of work, I hope to be nearly energy independent, or at least within the confines of what my region of the country produces from renewables and nuclear.

One of the things about the Oil Drum is that you will be talking to people who walk the walk. Accusing someone of not knowing enough about petroleum geology, when that person is a profession of same, is gauche. Likewise, accusing someone of being part of the problem, and making ad hominem attacks, is also inappropriate.

But back to the point: Obama's energy policy, and energy advisors, are more likely than any of the other two candidates to work aggressively to reduce domestic fossil fuel consumption, not just because of the oil companies (IOC or NOC) but because of climate change. His short message is appropriate; his long messages have to wait for YouTube.

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goghgoner on March 29, 2008 - 11:30pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Yes, Obama was very critical of the fuel efficiency requirements in the last energy bill as being way too low. Like Westexas, I think it is much too late for Obama to mitigate much of the damage from Peak oil (and facism). We are sinking and I only hope we can at least elect a brave captain to go down with us.

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tomc on March 30, 2008 - 7:41am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

But back to the point: Obama's energy policy, and energy advisors, are more likely than any of the other two candidates to work aggressively to reduce domestic fossil fuel consumption, not just because of the oil companies (IOC or NOC) but because of climate change. His short message is appropriate; his long messages have to wait for YouTube.

I think you're wrong here. McCain sees the oil consumption as a strategic problem. You can bet that he will be doing all that can possibly be done to reduce it.

But since he is a pragmatist, "doing all he can" might include stuff like liquifying coal.

To be honest, I really, *really* like the pragmatist approach. Especially since energy reductions would be so very invasive into people's personal lives. I *really* don't like how greens "want to modify everyone's way of doing things". That sounds a LOT like "the government's going to say how you spend your free time".

In addition there are other aspects of Obama which I consider beyond repair. I cannot forgive him for Wright, my grandparents were in WWII. I just cannot forgive him for Wright, and I believe listening to people like Wright (whether they're christians, muslims, atheists or communists or ...) will get us into WWIII before you can say cappucino. Obama only plays a person of reconciliation. However, he is a demagogue. And they *never* bring peace. They always bring war.

Furthermore, I cannot turn in my car. I work 72 miles from my place of residence, and the area I work in is more expensive than where I live (as in 20x more expensive for an equivalent, quite modest (80 m2) appartment, I mean for a family it's not that big). So much more expensive that even $300 oil would be preferable to moving. Public transportation is out because of the way it's organized here (besides, it's more expensive than paying for the fuel, and I already have the car). (I'd have to calculate when it starts making a difference, the govt. pays for it, so in reality I'm paying exactly $0 for transport oil, so it will not matter until the govt. repeals that specific way of doing things, which I believe will be when it goes bankrupt).

And I believe I'm hardly alone.

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Davidyson on March 30, 2008 - 3:05pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Gosh, tomc, open your eyes and get over your ideological blockade.

Wright: How does Wright relate to your grandparent's fighting in WWII? Did you watch Obama's speech on race and religion? How much more candid and grown-up and reasonable can you get as a politician than Obama?

And didn't you see McCain's "bomb, bomb, bomb - bomb, bomb Iran" "funny" episode (amongst others)? This guy is out of his mind. Being a war hero alone does not make you presidentiable - you must have gut, wits and some experience with the (current) real world.

"Obama only plays a person of reconciliation."

Yes? How do you know? Because otherwise he would be too good to not vote for him and you would have to swap sides? I haven't seen the slightest shred of evidence that he is not pretty much exactly what he claims to be - which is very different from both McCain and Clinton, who both are not only pragmatic, but opportunistic.

"However, he is a demagogue. And they *never* bring peace. They always bring war."

Well, like the duo infernale Bush/Cheney? Can't you see any positive difference between Obama and them?

"Especially since energy reductions would be so very invasive into people's personal lives. I *really* don't like how greens "want to modify everyone's way of doing things". That sounds a LOT like "the government's going to say how you spend your free time"."

Well, funny, we Europeans consume about half the energy Americans do - and have at least the same standard of living (some would say a better one, because of much more civil, less inequal societies, walkable cities, less violence, better social services etc.).
And while many Americans regards European governments as almost "socialist", our societies enjoy a degree of personal freedom, security and cohesion that is in fact unparalleled.

Maybe you should start looking beyond your own navel and study how the rest of the world lives?

Cheers,

Davidyson

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moonstroller on March 30, 2008 - 5:52pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I understand that Europeans are running out of jail space also these days.

Granted, Europe has a more laid back societal lifestyle, but, if they would shoulder their cost of the burden in dealing with terrorism they might not stack up so well, probably would have to build some jails too.

In fact, maybe they should build their own missile shield. We already have a partial shield called the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean.

Europe is shoulder to shoulder with Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, etc. Their only choices is to change their lifestyle to accommodate their neighbors or get wiped out.

The terrorist problem in Europe is far more explicit than in America.
If Europe looks down at their navel, they will probably find a bomb sitting there. Europe has nothing to brag about.

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Davidyson on March 31, 2008 - 2:26am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

You are trolling, right?

Jails: The proportion of people in European jails to the rest of the population is far, far lower than in the US. If you have a jail for one person and get another criminal, you are running out of space.

Missile shield: What for do we need a non-functional, easily outmanoevered missile shield? You are out of touch with reality.

Terror: Every year, about 100,000 people are dying in traffic in Europe. As desastrous as terror is for the public psyche, the number of casualties is almost infinitessimally small in comparison.
Many American's fear of terror and the simultaneous preparedness to inflict terror on other people (latest showing: Iraq, 100,000-900,000 dead, millions of refugees) is totally out of proportion.

The best recipes against terror are peaceful relations with other countries and a good police system.

Cheers,

Davidyson

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oregon7 on March 30, 2008 - 4:31pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Tom,

I must admit I'm confused by you statement that

I cannot forgive him for Wright, my grandparents were in WWII. I just cannot forgive him for Wright,

My father fought in the Battle of the Bulge in the winter of 1944... and I'm a big Obama supporter. In fact so is my father and many many other patriots. So I don't see the connection between WWII and supporting Obama.

But what really puzzles me is why you would need to forgive Obama for someone else's words. Is McCain responsible for all the beliefs of the Baptist church, or Hillary for all the beliefs of the Methodists (or her other right wing Christian group, the "Family"?) Were you going to hold Romney responsible for the Mormon church?

Furthermore, unlike any other candidate, Obama has specifically rejected the views of Wright. I don't even see what he needs to be forgiven for... could you explain that? What has he actually done or said... other than being part of a mainstream Black church... that you think he needs to be forgiven for?

Did you have a chance to listen to Obama's address on this subject? Here it is and it's worth your time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe7wTVbLUU

There are plenty of sound policy reasons to prefer McCain or Hillary, but it would be a shame to reject policy positions that you might actually prefer because of a misunderstanding about Obama's position on his former Pastor's beliefs and remarks.

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tomc on March 31, 2008 - 10:10am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

My father fought in the Battle of the Bulge in the winter of 1944... and I'm a big Obama supporter. In fact so is my father and many many other patriots. So I don't see the connection between WWII and supporting Obama.

Then you should know what caused that battle in the first place. And it was Wright's retoric. Not him personally, but the exact same statements about another semi-ethnic group.

I guess you simply won't believe it until someone else in your family dies in the next battle caused by a racist demagogue like Obama.

Furthermore, unlike any other candidate, Obama has specifically rejected the views of Wright. I don't even see what he needs to be forgiven for... could you explain that? What has he actually done or said... other than being part of a mainstream Black church... that you think he needs to be forgiven for?

Really ? He has given 2 examples he "mostly rejected but understood". Sorry. That's not "rejecting his views". At all.

I am not reassured. At all.

What do I want more ? I want him to take a stand at his church "either you reject this material, or you reject me". And he steadfastedly refuses to do so.

This is like the example of when the muslims conquered Jerusalem. They took some 3000 slaves. But they are against slavery, you see, because to celebrate victory, they gave 1 (ONE) slave her freedom (a little girl). That act, especially immediately after taking thousands of slaves, does not present their views.

You see, the one little straw does not make up a person's opinion/ideology. His actions do. Until he presents me with concrete actions against Wright, I will not accept him as anything other than a racist demagogue.

Besides I've heard enough of his speeches to see that you shouldn't pay attention to what he says, but to what he does not say.

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oregon7 on March 31, 2008 - 10:35am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Rejected but understood?

As a Jew, I understand Hitler's views, but I reject them. I understand where the Ku Klux Klan is coming from, but I reject them. I understand where Hamas is coming from, but I reject them.

I heard Obama put Wright's remarks in the context of Black history... which is exactly where they belong... that history includes both wisdom and ignorance. And that history, and Wrights views, are worth understanding even as, in some cases, they must be rejected.

Do I have to reject every nonsensical idea that pops up in the Jewish community, or else change the Jewish community, or else leave it? No, that's not how communities work. Likewise in families... sometimes you've got crazy old uncles who have ideas that are simply wrong, but you don't necessarily stop being part of the community.

I wouldn't want a African American president who wasn't connected to the authentic Black community of America, and I wouldn't want one who accepted everything that community believes.

It is reasonable to expect people to share our values if we are to elect them... it strikes me as a bit much to ask them to share our history and religion and personal community.

For my money, Obama has more than sufficiently distanced himself from the objectionable perspectives of Wright. I think Obama should be heard out on the merits of his ideas... not blamed for the ideas he has rejected.

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Ovis Suburbanus on March 31, 2008 - 2:44pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Oh get over it! Who gives a flying fuck what Wright said? Go back to your Kool-aid.

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Durandal on March 30, 2008 - 10:43am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

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