<DrumBeat: April 20, 2008 The Oil Drum DrumBeat: April 21, 2008>

29 comments on Jatropha Footnote

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Todd on April 20, 2008 - 8:10pm Permalink | Subthread | Comments top

I have a problem: All of these efforts are, essentially, an attempt to maintain business as usual. We refer to them as "Silver BB's" as though these BB's they have real meaning.

I'm certainly not against using biological materials for energy - I heat with wood - but it is off my own land. And, to me, this is key. I'm not diverting land. Not only is my wood use sustainable but I am actually building biomass. Nor am I "over populating it." I have 57 acres, ~23 hectares, and in many areas this would represent a population of 5,000 or more people. In an extreme case, it would be over 50,000 people. All of these people demand resources they don't personally have.

I have come to the conclusion that the more society attempts to pursue these kinds of useless stopgaps, the worse then end result will be.

Todd

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Cslater8 on April 20, 2008 - 10:21pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I agree Todd. Fact is the world economy with all its energy demands, rising population and associated food requirements, is unsustainable. Only primitive tribes live on a sustainable level. So essentially what humanity has done is multiply, extract, develop, construct, install, pave, etc. without any consideration whatsoever as the eventuation of that endeavor. There were no contingencies, plan B's, what if's, or could be's, just a race to achieve as much as possible, individually and collectively.
And of course with that approach there must be some point along the way when one or more resources dwindles and the expansion is compromised.

It's really no different than any other specie that simply devours what's immediately available. I know that's a harsh analogy, yet accurate none the less. Maybe humankind in some distant future will plan ahead with a view to the apparently elusive concept of sustainability.

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Robert Rapier on April 21, 2008 - 8:33am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I have a problem: All of these efforts are, essentially, an attempt to maintain business as usual.

I have a problem as well. Given that it disturbs me terribly to think of a single child starving or freezing to death - I have a problem idly standing by while billions suffer this fate. But hey, you have your 57 acres, so you needn't worry.

I can't imagine someone having a problem with efforts to mitigate disaster in the name of a sound bite like "business as usual." This business as usual for a very large fraction of the world's population is already a very hard life. Are you content to watch a large portion die? I am not. How about if we are talking about your family and friends? Are you going to try to save any of them? Why not? It would just be business as usual. I tell you there are a lot of Jews in WWII that are lucky Oskar Schindler didn't have your attitude.

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Todd on April 21, 2008 - 1:04pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Robert,

Nice straw man argument...millions going to die without biofuels to keep BAU going. Since you are the numbers guy, why don't you quantify how many people biofeuls will keep from dying. I would argue that more people have died, or will die, because of biofuels.

As far as mt 57 acres: I made a choice in the late 60's/early 70's to live as sustainable a lifestyle as I could - not perfect but pretty good. I gave up a career in the chemical industry, I was a plant manager at the time, and, ultimately, several million in income to do this. How much are you willing to give up?

Finally, people are going to die because of overshoot whether BAU continues or not.

Todd

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Robert Rapier on April 21, 2008 - 4:15pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

No strawman, just addressing what you said. Here we are discussing mitigation efforts involving a non-food oil grown on marginal land. And you have a "problem" with this because it promotes business as usual. Of course your situation is such that you expect BAU to continue.

I don't think too many of us would cast a blind eye to a child drowning in a lake. Yet some casually talk about billions starving to death. I don't get it. I guess to some those "billions" are just a statistic.

What would I give up? Are you mad? Right now I am giving up substantial time with my family in order to put us in a good position to weather the potential storms ahead. That's time I will never get back, and it's worth more to me than the millions you say you lost.

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eric blair on April 21, 2008 - 2:49pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

This business as usual for a very large fraction of the world's population is already a very hard life. Are you content to watch a large portion die? I am not.

So then how, exactly will you convince a change to the cheap price put on life under BAU?

If the people who pitch 'the carrying capacity of the biosphere for man is 2 billion' (or whatever number that is smaller than the 6 bil) are right, there is gonna be a die-off. The question becomes 'how' - and what will be the effect of that 'how'.

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29 comments on Jatropha Footnote

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