Nate,

I agree that TOD as a community would be greatly diminished if it were to be driven by a profit motive. The interactive nature of being able to correspond with the prophets is an empowering form of democracy that the MSM is very afraid of.

It's ironic that sustainability, in the truest sense, is about the end of growth (or equivalently, the continuation of some kind of growth starting with a much smaller population),

In regards sustainability meaning the end of growth, I think we need to recognise that we are programmed for economic growth and therefore we need not or cannot reject growth per se as this is akin to breathing and will ultimately dissapoint those trying to push such an agenda. Before the dissapointment may come the desire to force the ideology which can lead to all sorts of problems as we know.

Economics is after all about the allocation of scarce resources so there will always be those who will try to increase the size of the resources to make them less scarce (business) and there are those who will be concerned with allocation of the available supply (markets). These processes can be observed in nature and are not simply human inventions. We are simply acting on our natural instincts, born from our inherent and ultimate place in the environment.

We are the environment. We are of the Earth and our actions within it, regardless of how sophisticated, will never disconnect us from these basic and natural instincts which is to harvest as much energy as we can. When our natural energy supplies and infrastructure fail us, we will re-discover just how much a part of the environment we are. But regrdless of how brutal nature might be with us, we will still retain the instinct to plant, nurture, grow, harvest and store as much energy as we can.

We are not programmed for growth. We are programmed to attempt to survive. We attempt survival by addressing problems. The problems we address are limited by our own human perceptions.

But our vast social system contains myriad specific complexities that exceed the capability of the human brain to manage them properly in real-time. Instead, we are forced to wait until problems become crises. When the crisis hits, we address the problems on the back end. This ends up requiring growth because we don't do away with the broken components of the failing system on the front end, we instead add new components by acquiring and usurping more resources. The new system components then cause new levels of complexity and problems of their own.

Wash, rinse, repeat, ad nauseum.

Take for example the problem of air pollution from cars. We first addressed this by switching from regular to unleaded fuel. Then smaller cars, vapor recovery, and additives. Now, hybrids and electric cars. While all along the way, adding more cars to the roads and adding more roads.

Without ever asking the questions, "why do we need so many cars at all" or "why do we need to travel such long distances at all". Which are where the problems originate, at the front end.

The complex answers to these questions are also not "easy", and being already overwhelmed by information overload, overwork, media saturation, and general disconnection from other humans, other living things, and our environments, we tend to find "difficult" answers to be wholly unpalatable.

It's ironic that sustainability, in the truest sense, is about the end of growth (or equivalently, the continuation of some kind of growth starting with a much smaller population) ...

We don't realize how true this is. It is, in fact, the life-cycle of the human body. We start as a single fertilized cell, which divides several trillion times, specializing along the way, until we reach maturity where growth slows. As a mature adult, we repeat the process through having wild sex, which hopefully after several attempts results in another fertilized cell. Then the mature adult usually gradually declines in energy requirements and body mass (losing many individual living cells in the process). Then the systemic interaction of cells that make up and support the body as a whole abruptly ceases, in what we call "death".

Our civilization (1) has no renewal process for the eventual decline and crash of its complex system and (2) is so incredibly poorly designed as to continually require vastly larger amounts of matter and energy inputs to avoid collapse.

Fast crash.

We are not programmed for growth. We are programmed to attempt to survive. We attempt survival by addressing problems. The problems we address are limited by our own human perceptions.

I would suggest based on the way all life works, and specifically on several species on the verge of extinction. That life as we know it here and the survival of that life is entirely based on growth. Life makes copies of itself that is one of the very basic definitions of life itself. For life the more copies it can make and therefore grow the better it's chances at survival. Our particular species however has a problem we have become way too good at making copies of ourselves and like the bacteria in the petri dish will soon exhaust the raw materials we need to survive. All the conservation in the world will only go so far sooner or later, either in a controlled fashion or absolute chaos our population has to decline substantially for for any of the sustainability ideas to work.

It would have been more accurate for me to say that we are not programmed for unrestrained or unlimited growth in our numbers, in our population.

Growth gives us "more", which is what we use to solve problems, problems which were created by the previous "more" not getting to the root of the problem.

And the roots of our problems have been almost completely obscured due to our cognitive limitations in the face of extreme complexity.

In biological systems, of which H. sapiens is an example, decline (increasing senescence) and termination (death) always follow growth. Life continues because prior to termination, the process is renewed (in our case through sexual relations and birth).

Civilization believes, due to the important particulars being obfuscated by complexity, that decline and termination will never come. In reality, the decline has been happening for millennia, and termination is not only inescapable but will be rapid.

We have climbed so far up, and have so much further to fall during a collapse.

We have no process, designed from the top-down or inherent from the bottom-up, that provides resilient renewal for our societal structure for the inevitable end.

Maybe "resilient renewal" is a better term than "sustainability".

Growth is more than just the physical hogging of resources. Spiritual growth and growth of knowledge and wisdom do not necesarily use more resources and may in fact be the path to reducing our physical wants, but it still entails growth, just maybe not the sort of growth we typically talk about here which is economic.