<Thoughts on Demand Destruction: Where Is It? The Oil Drum DrumBeat: April 29, 2008>

159 comments on A Real Time Example of Energy Quality- How Wind Turbines are Subsidized by Fossil Fuels

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paal myrtvedt on April 28, 2008 - 9:57pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Hi Dave. Ehh.. I dunno, but your first paragraph, was that for me ?

Secondly you say "....it is clear that PV power is now reaching an economic breakthrough point..." possibly so, but if PVs are not EROEI positive it is a scam... although not "on purpose" B/C they never bothered to analyze EROEI for that process nor did the various governmental energy-safety board’s demand so, so there we go. Renewable today are there to serve Climate Issues (only IMO) !

PS: Norway is the lucky land , even after PO .... we are still 100% served by hydro-stations for el. (minus some rare peak situations), some reshuffling within industry and we could be served the next 100 years on tha same amount (120 twh/year at 4,7 million people)

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DaveMart on April 28, 2008 - 9:59pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Nope, the first paragraph was directed at those you were critiquing.
I don't really think that PV is in trouble from EROEI calculations, just from people trying to site it in daft places without sunshine or store it for baseload or transport it thousands of miles.
Let's get the darn thing working where it is most suitable first.

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Barrett808 on April 29, 2008 - 11:23am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

What I'm seeing in Seattle are incremental additions of PV into the urban infrastructure, notably:

mini-meters

and SpeedInfo radar

.

It's interesting that PV is being deployed to enable new scenarios, instead of retrofitting existing ones.

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jokuhl on April 29, 2008 - 11:59am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Well don't overlook the thousands upon thousands of Highway Info Signs that are now on PV/Batt instead of running off a little, probably dirty as hell 2-cycle generator. Portable, Durable and Programmable (ie, countless messages in one piece of hardware)

It does enable new applications, with the access to truly independent power. Some will be as nuts as the times we live in. It's inevitable.. but the PV can be salvaged for better uses down the line.

Bob

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Noizette on April 29, 2008 - 12:44pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Here, in Switz. PV is being touted to light gardens, lovely and scenic amongst the plants; entryways, walkways, commercial signs, forest paths, at night. (Previously unlighted, on the whole.) All the stores are filled with small solar devices and they are selling like hot cakes. Most (all I saw) are made in China. It is the new cool green - acid green - thing.

My neighbor bought some and already threw them out. Had to pay recycling tax, ha ha.

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jokuhl on April 29, 2008 - 3:29pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Yarrrgghh.. you caught me on my favorite pet peeve. Those little solar "Pathway Lights".. Ok, my turn to kvetch! Instead of putting Solar into something actually needed, this is a 'created need'.. which might be ok, but for the cheapness of the construction and how many I see which have died and end up making the technology become equated with Nonfunctioning stuff floating around in the garden shed..

Useful alternates.. Maybe putting your TV/Stereo remotes with little panels into a holder on the windowsill, alongside the Ipod, flashlight, and the Indoor/Outdoor Thermometer.. all items I have recently had to deal with dead little batteries in.

Also, however, I have made my Voltmeter run on Solar charged AA batts instead of Mercury Watch Cells, and my Address Book, (HP 200LX) is also a new 'Window Chotchke'

Baby Steps!
Bob

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enemy of state on April 29, 2008 - 4:38pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Considering the PV is in the very early stages of exponential growth, the current power contributions of the existing PV is tiny and of little importance. What is important at this phase is that PV manufacturing is profitable enough to generate rapid progress. Looked at from that respect, these frivolous applications are actually doing us a big favor. In essence they are helping to subsidize the early development effort.

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DaveMart on April 30, 2008 - 7:42am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I've come round to the idea of solar PV on cars, which initially I thought was daft as the contribution to powering the car as it is driving would be tiny.
What I hadn't thought about was that it can run the air-con in hot climates, making the car cool when you get back into it and saving you leaving the battery working hard.

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159 comments on A Real Time Example of Energy Quality- How Wind Turbines are Subsidized by Fossil Fuels

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