147 comments on A Visit to the New Choren BTL Plant
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GAIA Host Collective
Robert, thanks for another detailed and informative post.
I have a question about the sustainability though. Do they recover nutrients? I expect some ammonia and volatile amines will be produced in the first step as they are in low-temp coal gasification. Potassium is volatile at 1400 C, so where does it go, and phosphorus should remain as glass in the ash, acid leachable, so do they?
From a nutrient standpoint "forest waste", isn't. The living part of a conifer is the cambium and needles, and these remain in the forest, releasing P,K and some N for the next generation. If people start gathering this material as biomass feedstock, The minerals must be replenished from the source rock, or come back from the biofuel plant. Calculation of EROI should take all of this into account too.
Nothing in nature is "waste."
How do you value that which is priceless? The ecocidal ape already appropriates approximately 40% of global primary productivity to its own use, leaving only 60% for the maintenance of vital ecosystem support services. After having learned the clever ape trick of oxidizing fossil biomass, the ape is now going to do the same with current biomass, allowing it to grow its population that much more in excess of K, leaving even less "feedstock" for ecosystems & biodiversity. The forests are doomed, we will clearcut them in order to keep driving. Same with the grasslands. Switchgrass for fuel. Same with our lotic environments. Algae for fuel. Business as usual at all costs, until it all utterly collapses. This is what this technology leads to. Robert & his clever cohorts are applying all their considerable ape cleverness towards this outcome.
darwinsdog
That is an extremely 'dog'matic response. It reveals a misunderstanding of how living communities function. You are confusing a forest ecosystem that is selectively harvested on a 25 year rotation with a garden or farm field that may be harvested annually.
Of course it is easy to assume the worst of your fellow humans, and surely there is plenty of evidence to support that argument, but it is obvious that selective harvesting of forest biomass can be done sustainably. A well-maintained farm woodlot is a good example of sustainable forestry.
I routinely encounter urban folks with no forestry experience who see a forest as a museum in which the removal of a tree exhibit renders the whole diminished, when a forest is actually a living community in constant evolution.
You have failed to consider solar input to forests, which is what accounts for their growth. I live in the middle of 100 acres of bush and I can tell you that its growth is so rapid that it constantly threatens to overwhelm my attempts to maintain a small clear spot to live in.
It's not that obvious. First of all, harvesting the forest will destroy habitats and, at least temporarily, alter that local environment (to some effect). Also, removing nutrients and organic matter from the forest means that those have to be replaced. How is that done sustainably? And, if this kind of thing takes off, isn't it likely that even more forest will be harvested to feed our consumer societies, to further detrimental effect?
I agree darwinsdog. There's no forward thinking here. If the nutrients are taken away from the forests then they will degrade and eventually die off. Taking switchgrass from the plains will cause the soil to dry out and support less switchgrass. But there's no stopping this last ditch desperate attempt to keep on burning oil ad infinitum.
Trully, hothing is waste.
By the same principle, neither is CO2, coal, oil or nuclear spent fuel.
Just make sure that the nutrients that are processed are again redistributed into the nature by one of the ancient means of transport:
1. CO2 - the plant food, to be distributed via air even to poor countried.
2. SO2 and SO3 - to be distributed aerially and condition the soil via mildly acid rain.
3. NO2 and NO3 - washed throught water and added with solid to fertilizer, or using aerial distribution.
Liquid residues:
NH3 - ammonia to be mixed to fertilizers.
Creosote - For further thermal processing.
Solid residues:
P, Mn, Fe, ashes, other trace elements - to present solid to the fertilizer.
I believe you are pretty much right on in this response, I think if our society keeps trying to live its current lifestyle by chasing diminishing marginal returns like this then we are in for a collapse no doubt, I think it has already been decided many years ago though. Like you say we don't need cleverness as much as wisdom in these times..
Anthropus ecocidus is pretty cunning & clever. It can do some neat tricks. But if there's any wisdom on this planet it resides with the Cetacea, not the Primates.
Then what's the point in existing if we are doomed to never get to days better than today?
No I don't think it's as hopeless as you suggest. We need a source of liquid fuels for some of our equipment that can not be powered electrically. But there is still plenty of forms of energy out there other than fossil fuels.
There is no point. The universe is ateleological. No meaning or purpose or point whatsoever. It just is. Whatever inspired people to believe or expect otherwise is beyond me. Just accept the pointlessness and get on with your life.
Yes, that's why people build and create things. To create meaning themselves. We need the kind of society that can support development and progress.
Yes, people "create" meaning, but deep down they know that the meaning they create is arbitrary, and doesn't exist outside the confines of their own nervous systems and won't survive their own personal annihilation. Cold comfort. Isn't it better to just accept that meaning doesn't exist, rather than engage in the rather desperate attempt to create arbitrary faux meaning? I guess it's a personal value judgement.
For someone who purports to believe that all meaning is arbitrary, you have made some pretty bold statements about others motivations and actions.
This indicates that you have simply not thought through the implications of what you assert to be your philosophy.
Of course, you miss the even deeper irony that your philosophy is by your reckoning an arbitrary faux meaning.
A much more reasonable position is that the human brain is so constructed that it perceives pattern, and indeed cannot function in any other way, so the question of whether the universe has meaning is redundant, as when observed by any human being it will be seen to have meaning, even if it is the one you attach.
A healthy human being creates meaning and value by assigning them and attempting to bring them about, and so doesn't need some hypothetical exterior deus ex machina.
It takes guts to place value in people and objectives, but that is what is needed to move beyond the adolescent angst at life's lack of meaning.
There is plenty of meaning, if you have the courage to accept the pain that this brings.
That's fine, but it means that there is no one answer to "what is the point of life?" The answer may be different for each person.
I just accept that we're here and we've evolved a certain nervous system that includes the notions of thought and emotions. We make our our meaning, as you say, but can't apply that to anyone else.
The various eastern philosophies might express this as that the universe has 'suchness', has no need for meaning, being prior to that.
As Popeye said: 'I yam what I yam - I'm Popeye the sailor-man! - toot toot!'
Meaning is a human value, and cannot exist outside that context.
You are assuming though that people are pretty different, so many meanings are possible.
Actually they make fairly similar constructs, with only the details varying much.
That is not too surprising when we consider that there are considerable similarities in human experience.
One of those similarities is that typically an adolescent experiences a loss of perception of value, but normally only the disturbed retain this in practise if not in theory, and most come to the conclusion that for themselves much of the meaning is in the relationships they form, and in what they create in their work and life.
I might as well enjoy life while I can then. I'll cash up and buy a hummer. The Earth ecosystem will find some new equilibrium after I'm gone and who the f*ck cares what stupid species go extinct? "Nature" sure doesn't.
*End of sarcasm*
Didn't sound particularly sarcastic to me. Sounded quite rational, altho perhaps not something I'd agree with. If you want to live for the selfish enjoyment of the moment, with no concern for the future or for others, you'd only being doing what the vast majority of organisms do anyway. So go for it. You won't hurt anyone's feelings by being a hedonist.
Meaning is not so arbitrary when you can see direct results and change.
I am from the computer industry. And it's one full of optimism as the people working in it are very much aware that they are rapidly changing the world. You'll find it full of mostly futurists and technologists.
Why, there's this bob dylan song, that would work great as an anthem for the industry, one that is used to a revolution every few years.
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/times.html
The last thing I want, is for civilisation to go back to the 19th century, I think the technology to get us out of this situation already mostly exists. We don't need a power down we need power modernisation. The question is do people have the wisdom and willingness to do it, or will they just party while they still can.
Is it really impossible to imagine a better life than today, without ruining our habitat or denuding it of energy?
Business as usual at all costs, until it all utterly collapses. This is what this technology leads to. Robert & his clever cohorts are applying all their considerable ape cleverness towards this outcome.
I usually don't dignify such off-the-mark responses with a remark, but there may be others who don't understand my position. I have argued against the business as usual model for 20 years. We need to power down, but we also need some stop-gap measures as we do so. I am not content to wring hands while people starve. That doesn't mean people won't still die, but I won't stand idly, using sound bites like "business as usual" as a reason for inaction. I work to make sure we have some hope of transitioning to a post-oil future - albeit one in which we use a lot less energy.
Apparently not. Rather, you will actively promote starvation by growing food for fuel, or devoting land on which food could be grown to growning ligno-cellulosic feedstocks. By reducing soil fertility and tilth by processing residues for fuel that should be returned to the soil, you foster famine. By oxidizing organic substances that could be sequestering carbon in the soil as refractile humic & fulvic substances, you contribute to atmospheric warming that will ensure that crops fail and tens of millions starve. Are you truly evil or merely a fool, Robert?
By oxidizing organic substances that could be sequestering carbon in the soil as refractile humic & fulvic substances, you contribute to atmospheric warming...
Actually, I sequester carbon for a living. I suspect that my own carbon footprint looks better than yours...
Are you truly evil or merely a fool, Robert?
While I prefer to think of myself as truly evil, it could be that you just don't know what you are talking about. And in fact, that is the case. (That doesn't mean I am not truly evil, though).
Carbon contained in biomass comes mostly from the air, not the soil. It is possible to grow it in a sustainable manner. I have seen it done - with the residual ash returned to the soil. In fact, I recently stood on top of a pile of biomass 100 feet high, and a football field long. It contained almost no nutrients, and the owner was asking me to please help him find a way to get rid of it - other than just burning it. But there will always be impotent hand-wringers who don't understand the difference between strip-mining soil - which I have argued strongly against for many years - and the possibility of sustainable biomass.
LoL So is this the new status determinant? Not "my dick is bigger than yours" or "my truck has more horsepower than yours." Sorry, but that Eritrean kid on the brink of starvation has you beat all to hell. How puerile can you get?
The Eritrean kid's footprint is greater than zero, Robert's may be less than zero.
And your hot air is contributing quite a bit to AGW, without shedding one quantum of light.
The Eritrean kid's footprint is greater than zero, Robert's may be less than zero.
Doh, you beat me to it. I was just about to point that out. As EP alludes, yes, my carbon footprint is in fact negative. Our puerile friend must enjoy sticking his foot in his mouth. That's what often happens when someone forms an opinion, and then doesn't let factual information get in the way of that opinion.
I should also remind him that he is the one who brought up carbon sequestration.
Anyway, I normally don't consort with trolls, and when someone comes on spouting off about things which he knows not - and in the process calls me a fool, evil, and accuses me of promoting food for fuel - he is definitely a troll in my book.
Perhaps you could critique more effectively if you commented on what has actually been said, rather than your own distortion of it.
The proposals Robert has put forward clearly state that this is a solution which is limited in scope, appropriate to provide power where the use of electricity is difficult, for instance to power agricultural machinery which would be very difficult otherwise, thus providing more of the food you are ostensibly concerned about.
The use of animals for the same purpose would use far more cropland, around a third of all agricultural land.
He also clearly stated that the production of biogas and biodiesel would be acceptable only if done in a sustainable way.
You are obviously unaware that many sources of biogas currently produce only pollution, for instance the effluent both from humans and intensively farmed animals.
You, on the contrary, propose nothing of any worth to help.
Giving up is apparently your preferred option.
Before you make false accusations, perhaps you would present your own proposals.
darwinsdog, grow up. Get off your flippin' high horse, already.
I know nothing about you, but based on your postings here on TOD in the last couple months, I'd guess you are a university student, probably in ecology or related science, and definitely no older than your mid-20s. Your perspective is so extreme, it speaks of a profound immaturity. You remind me of that character in the "Twas the Night Before Christmas" (1974) cartoon special: the precocious, mechanically gifted mouse Albert, who spends so much time telling other people how little they know. Albert was smart, but he was not wise. And that's what he learns about himself in the course of the story. The jury's still out on you.
Look in the mirror, boyo: you're an "ecocidal ape" just like the rest of us. How much non-renewable energy do you eat up using the Internet? Even if all your tech is plugged into robust solar energy systems, or some treadle-driven mechanism you pedal as you type, all the infrastructure that traffics your thoughts into the glowing pixels we read is not only built on non-renewable energy, most of it is made with highly toxic materials that will not break down into more "natural" states until long after even our culture is no longer remembered.
You're deeply embedded in the system you profess to hate -- to varying degrees whether you want to be or not.
If you're so hard core and so pure: log off, stop using any cultural artifacts made of non-renewable/toxic molecules, then either go join the Old Order Amish or move into a forest and live off the land like a sannyasin.
If you're not willing to do that, then at least spare us all your insufferable editorializing. I, for one, already share your sense of eco-crisis and concern, and wonder if Homo sapiens will turn out to be no wiser than yeast in a jar of grapejuice. But I don't make the mistake of thinking that I am so much better than everyone else.
Robert is one of the most lucid voices on the web when it comes to Peak Oil and related issues. He is deeply concerned about the challenge represented by peak oil, yet thoughtful and measured in his responses. He spends a great deal of time, time taken away from his family and the rest of his life, sharing the fruits of his highly trained thinking and considered perspective with the Internet community. He is a valuable member of the TOD community. You, on the other hand, are so far little more than an extremist gadfly (if a well-educated one).
THANK YOU KL!!!
My forte is not energy or peak oil, I'm just a code slinger, but this 'Dogbert' dude was going to make me throw up. Thanks for saving me the typing.
Thanks from me too, KL.
I was getting all hot under the collar reading this thread, especially with the respect I have for Robert.
Your reply is far more eloquent and nicely said than I would have done.
Steve
Quite simply there are too many people on the Earth.
They are only being maintained by industrialized agriculture.
By your reasoning it's a catch 22.
Since we are depleting the soil by our unsustainable practises then we're doomed.
BUT
If we try to maintain the soil then our productivity will drop so much that we're doomed too.
Which choice do you make Hobson?
>Nothing in nature is "waste."
Really? Then where did all this coal and oil come from in the first place.
Natures waste is our fuel source at the moment, this technology could just speed up it's manufacture. ;)
Besides, surely biomass other than forest waste could be used. What about farming waste or even human waste?