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297 comments on DrumBeat: May 13, 2008

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joemichaels on May 13, 2008 - 3:37pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Wharf Rat "All I need to do is plug it into my solar panels."

This statement is misleading to a lot of people who don't understand Solar Panel Power Production. If you have a grid tied (most are) system you have a net metering agreement with a utility to sell power back to the grid during overproduction (daylight hours) and purchase of power back from the utility at night. If there is a power failure your solar panels stop producing power for your use as well. Consider that there was a repairman working on a line where you are still producing power from your panels going into the grid. If the repairman is hurt, perhaps fatally, the bootleg power producer is responsible.

In order to have an off grid system you need batteries, local power generator and this is very expensive. Local Solar panels for residential rooftops will fail to be economical until the price of utility power rises to stratopheric levels.

How far are we away from average utility bills reaching those prices. The problem is that by the time utility prices reach those levels the economy may be seriously unwinding so much that average people will be unable to purchase solar panels.

In CA, which has a perfect environment for solar power generation, the growth of the solar industry has been tied to massive incentives (up to a third) and even then the economics of the purchase are a hard sell even for people that can afford them.

During the high flying times when people had the resources they chose to buy McMansions, expensive suv's, swimmingpools, exotic vacations and Home Theatre systems and did I mention accessories. The majority of these purchases were bought with massive amounts of home equity and credit card debt. Now that home equity has been wiped out, so has the opportunity to make an investment in solar technology for the majority.

The only people I see purchasing Solar Panels are the rich. And they're the same group that is buying oil futures and precious metal commmodities.

Will this mean the demise of the American Middle Class?

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eric blair on May 13, 2008 - 4:35pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Wharf Rat "All I need to do is plug it into my solar panels."

Last time I cared to check there was a company that was making 200 watt DV-AC converters and their stumbling block was getting a 'deal' with a PV panel vendor.

Will this mean the demise of the American Middle Class?

Its mostly dead already.

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jokuhl on May 13, 2008 - 5:47pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Joe,
You also apparently don't understand Solar Power Production. Not necessarily your fault, but your post is misleading as well, on a number of fronts.

It has been stated numerous times at this site that you can have a Grid Tie that also has battery backup (with as much or as little battery capacity as you choose, and a comparative pricetag. The expense is probably a third of the cost of the total installation.) - and this can switch over safely if there is a grid failure. On top of that, PV panels are quite simple, and could be driving a car charger and/or backup car batteries as a completely independant system. The backup and car batts could even run an inverter for household loads, if you chose to set it up that way.

"The only people I see purchasing Solar Panels are the rich. And they're the same group that is buying oil futures and precious metal commmodities."

When you say it that way, it makes me wonder if you're actually looking. I see working people investing where they can. I am. I'm not rich. Clearly it's a tough investment to choose, against the lure and lull of the last cheap gas and grid power.. but to call it 'Uneconomical at current prices', and then go on immediately to predict how energy prices will soon be skyrocketing.. well that clearly makes it 'Economical' then, doesn't it? It's called an 'Investment' because you're doing it with a careful eye towards the likely future, not a fickle take on current but unstable conditions.

Is yours going to be going out there as yet another voice that says 'investing carefully is for rubes'? 'Looking ahead is too risky.. just live for today and then blame the government when things don't work out.' That's what our neighbors have heard from all sides, and it has given them the pass as they have kept putting off taking these tough pills.

Yes, it will be a tougher pill tomorrow, as all costs go up, as our available cash dwindles.. doesn't this make the conclusion clear as day? Do it now. Do some research and take the plunge with Efficient Appliances, Geothermal Heat Pumps, Passive Solar Retrofits, PV-EV , Solar Water and Air Heating, Wind, get the Bikes out of the Basement whatever..

Bob

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Durandal on May 13, 2008 - 7:55pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I agree that it can easily be viewed as an investment, and an investment that can be as expensive as you want it to be, with some limitations of course. My first system was an experiment, where I bought a 45 watt system, charger, and DC lights for $200. It was great to take camping to run my laptop off of when I felt inspired to write due to the wonderful relaxing atmosphere.

However, let's say you want to go a little bigger, with plans on going to a pretty good size. For $1500 you can purchase a charger/inverter combo. These puppies can pump out 2,500 to 3,000 watts, can charge from DC solar or AC input. They output pure sine wave, so it's safe to use them on things like your washing machine, etc. Then you can buy a few panels, with ability to add more panels in the future as money allows.

This is actually what I'm doing for my home I'm building this summer. For the construction of my home, I will have grid power, but after I get my solar system set up, I plan on cutting it off. I will have my inverter, a few panels for a total of around 500 watts of peak power, and every few months, I'll continue adding panels as money allows. My system will start out costing me $3,000 and can grow as the years pass by.

Am I rich? No. Am I middle class? Maybe. Am I a burger-flipper? No.

Others put money in their 401k... I put money into paying off my land, building my house with cash, and then ensuring I have no utilities to eat up my income when I'm retired.

:)

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jokuhl on May 13, 2008 - 10:05pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Good luck with your house.

I think you were talking about the 45w system before. Harbor Freight? I picked up the same package, and luckily (according to you, IIRC) I never touched the charge controller. At that price, the panels were around $4.50/watt, and I'll use them here and there for Fans and Pumps on 'Automatic' Solar heating systems, etc.. one of them Ran an Electric HO Train on Earth Day, which was fun! The 12v CFL's were a nice bonus.

I know they are cheapish Chinese PV's, if we're talking about the same kit, but with some luck they'll last like I hear they should. I now have about 350w of PV, but still need to get a decent inverter.. just have a cheezy 400w approximated-sinewave 'car inverter'... more an emergency kit than anything.

Bob

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Durandal on May 14, 2008 - 7:18am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Yeah, the 45w was the Harbor Freight one. I currently have a different charge controller for it now, which works much better. My new panels which are being delivered today are Evergreen Solar panels at 160w each. I will be getting a 48v Xantrex 3kw charger/inverter shortly for this system.

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WNC Observer on May 14, 2008 - 8:31am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Interesting approach. I like the idea of incremental additions to capacity:

1) Start with core electronics: inverter, controller, charger, switches;

2) Then start adding PV panels and batteries as you can afford them.

Is there some sort of roof rack mount that you are using for the panels?

I could see the value of carefully figuring out the load from each circuit and labeling them so that one would know which circuits to keep on and which to snap off if one is on battery backup power or it was a cloudy day. One might even want to do a little re-wiring so that one had only high priority things (refrigerator, for example) on some circuits, and only dispensible things on the others. Once one had done that, then one would have a next-step goal (after initial set up with a "starter system"): add enough capacity to the system to at least power all of your "essentials" circuits, with enough battery backup to power them for X amount of time - 3 days, say. That might be as far as many people can ever get; the dispensible things might eventually just have to be truly dispensed with, as the power for them (whether from the grid or an off-grid system) might very well become unaffordable for most people.

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joemichaels on May 13, 2008 - 10:52pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Jokuhl "You also apparently don't understand Solar Power Production."

Relax Jokuhl! You apparently can't read what I wrote and that is your fault. I said most systems are grid tied. That's true. You can invest in a battery back-up system but that could send a $30,000 investment over $45,000. You said the exact same thing. What's the disagreement?

"another voice that says 'investing carefully is for rubes'?"

Didn't say that either. I said that when there was previously cash equity in peoples homes available for people to buy solar or energy saving investments they instead chose to buy consumer products. I didn't say or imply that Nobdody did. I said most people did. That's true.

Your argument that you aren't rich and you make careful investments doesn't hold up as an argument that would apply to more than a small segment of the population.

Premise: You aren't rich
Premise: You make good investments
Conclusion: People who aren't rich make good investments.

Premise to the particular applying to general = false conclusion.

Good Luck!

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jokuhl on May 14, 2008 - 8:07am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Joe;
Your whole post was built on absolutes and 'Premises to the Particular, Applied to the General'. You were responding to Wharf Rat's, "All I need to do is plug it into my solar panels." Which was an absolutely true statement, that you made sound unmanagable.

"Premise: You aren't rich
Premise: You make good investments
Conclusion: People who aren't rich make good investments.

Premise to the particular applying to general = false conclusion. "

I didn't draw that conclusion. I simply challenged your simplified suggestion that only 'the rich' are buying solar. I do draw the conclusion that there are certainly MANY working and middle-class people who are making this good investment.. and many others would also do so if they weren't getting so much bad advice.

Bob

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Wharf Rat on May 14, 2008 - 12:31am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Rich? I'm a respiratory therapist, not a pulmonary doc. You don't even see us on the medical shows on TV (or at least I don't, cuz I don't watch 'em). Wharf rats are not known for being rich.

I'm grid intertie. No batteries until I need them, at which time I will plug in my seasonal creek, too. And that electric car (truck; 4WD??) does have batteries. If electrics can serve as batteries for the national grid, my own car should be able to do it with me.
This year, it looks like I will donate 500KWH to PGE, cuz I don't get paid for my excess. Yearly cost to me to be hooked to the grid...60 bucks. Administrative cost of disconnecting...not sure, but substantial.

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297 comments on DrumBeat: May 13, 2008

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