<DrumBeat: May 16, 2008 The Oil Drum DrumBeat: May 17, 2008>

112 comments on Biofuels and the Rise of Nationalistic Environmentalism

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Prof. Goose on May 16, 2008 - 11:07am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Keep the disagreements civil, folks.

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Petrus on May 16, 2008 - 4:04pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Sure but who will answer their pressing question.

Why are WE obligated to feed the world?

Tell them, that it is because others already reached highly "cooperative societies", where those who have the food are not slaves to rotten capitalistic incentives to distribute it.

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Oilrig medic on May 16, 2008 - 4:51pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I guess my opponents elegant writing was deleted LOL. I am against food to fuel for the record, we need to export food to help with trade deficit, and I'm glad food is finally being priced in a reasonable range. The good thing about biofuels is we are still learning what works. Brasil has a great model I toured two sugar cane plants while I lived there. The whole gulf coast could farm the cane fairly easily although the labor is not is cheap. (Prison chain gangs perhaps? Anyway if we are wanting to end poverty, handouts locally and globally are not the way. We would be better off with infrastructure and education to bring a group up to the point where they can fend for themselves. Obviously acute famines like burma should be handled compassionately but consistently dumping cheap food into the world market hurts world farmers.

MAtt

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DRAGONDONK on May 17, 2008 - 3:06am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

The whole gulf coast could farm the cane fairly easily although the labor is not is cheap. (Prison chain gangs perhaps?

Sure why not? And aftetr we've run out of forced prison labour maybe we can round up few drug users or anyone remotely suspected of ever having used drugs and press them into salvery. And then there are the homeless who will be better off in forced servitude anyway, at least we'll feed them (maybe) and what about those homosexuals, they don't breed so of what use are they anyway. Illegal immigrants should be on the list (oh thats right, we already have a salve labour program for them), but there's plenty of white tras around, anyone with a tattoo or facial metalwork should qualify? And then we can segregate people by race.....

You have just proved Mr Zeiglers points about how biofuel leads to fascim. And it it did't even hurt did it?

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Oilrig medic on May 17, 2008 - 11:07am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

WOW what a logical progression you made from taking away cable from prisoners and having them work to oppressing all non WASPs. As for proving anything about fascism I did not attempt to and you clearly were not successful. I personally am in favor of oppressing people with facial metal work. I have always hated them. Those lip piercings make them dribble when they drink the Koolaid. Dragon....whats wrong with you?

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Big Gav on May 18, 2008 - 6:20am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Yeah Dragon - don't you know the old saying "Arbeit Macht Frei" ? It would be good for them !

Mr Medic - I'd recommend studying a little history if you want to understand the natural progression from using prisoners for cheap labour to using all sorts of other people who the state doesn't regard as fully-fledged citizens.

It would be very easy to start with prisoners and then move on to illegal immigrants, for example - make them "earn" their way back home - what could be fairer than that ? And on it goes.

Changing tack, I think tagging the "Natural Capitalism" people as being synonymous with "environmental nationalism" (why not just call them ecofascists) and being supporters of first generation biofuels is just wrong - I;d guess most cleantech people don't support food to fuel at all (Vinod Khosla excepted), though they are more gung ho about cellulosic ethanol etc.

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Oilrig medic on May 18, 2008 - 3:47pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

So in the cool hand luke days of chain gangs the guys had to ask permission to wipe sweat off their forehead. Now our paid road workers stand in large groups while one or two work. Why are all those marginal citizens mentioned above not slaving away? Maybe its not a natural progression? Show me an example of prisoner labor shifting to enslaving all non WASPS in a moder democracy with a constitution.

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Baz on May 18, 2008 - 11:29pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I would, but it would be a clear violation of Godwin's Law

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Big Gav on May 19, 2008 - 9:42am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Apparently he isn't aware of that example, no matter how many hints are dropped.

As far as I'm aware, the idea of using prisoners for forced labour is a barbaric one that is unknown in the developed world (I simply can't image prisoners doing roadwork in European countries, or Australia, or Japan etc etc).

China does it of course - so maybe its just a natural thing for totalitarian states with a disregard for civil liberties...

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Oilrig medic on May 19, 2008 - 11:31am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Last I checked Germany was in Europe. I said MODERN democracy though and I disagree with your premise that if we force prisoners to work instead of watch cable then that slippery slope will lead to oppression of all. Sorry its a huge stretch. An we have so many idle prisoners (useless mouths if you will ;) ) that could be working. You could even credit nonviolent offenders with double time served if they work.

BTW I don't think the US is totalitarian and we do have civil liberties.

Also working prisoners are less violent than idle prisoners. So my personal opinion is if you screw up you should have a hard time in jail not just three hots and a cot.

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DRAGONDONK on May 21, 2008 - 1:37am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I don't disagree that prison should be a place where prisoners work to redeem themselves, but viewing them as a source of labour for profit is a fascist idea that can be expanded to include other groups of non citizens. Welfare recipients come to mind foremeost as the logical target group.

Democracy is a precious gift but it does not live in a constitution but in the actions and thougths of it's participants every day. Your civil liberties are only as guaranteed as your preparedness to defend the rights of others as a matter of principle. Otherwise democracy is a cheap label that anyone can flash around (e.g. Democratic Peoples Repblic of Korea).

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112 comments on Biofuels and the Rise of Nationalistic Environmentalism

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