<US Natural Gas: The Role of Unconventional Gas The Oil Drum Solar Islands: A new concept for low-cost solar energy at very large scale>

103 comments on Hirsch on CNBC: Peak oil problem "as massive as one can possibly imagine"

Comments can no longer be added to this story.

| Show without comments | PDF version

GreyZone on May 21, 2008 - 2:02am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Tell me how faith based markets addressed the Irish potato famine. Oh they didn't, did they? Instead the British used the famine AND the market to strip the Irish of their ancestral lands and then worked them to death in near concentration camp conditions, burying them in mass unmarked graves.

Or how about those free, unregulated markets that have created the largest credit mess in the entire history of the world and have to have government bail out the likes of Bear Stearns and other financial institutions?

Your faith in free markets demonstrates a blindness in yourself, not in others. No one but a fool (or a libertarian anarchist) argues for totally free markets. Likewise, the collapse of the USSR demonstrates the folly of trying to plan the entire economy. So the answer lies (as usual) somewhere in between.

The question then is how much market activity can we hope for in the time before we reach critical supply problems. Now, since you are relatively new here at TOD, we can forgive your ignorance On Energy Transitions Past and Future. But if you bother to read that article, you discover that every other major transition took 50-80 years to occur without government intervention. Further, each transition was supported by the new energy source being as cheap as or cheaper than the source it replaced. And finally, each energy source was higher quality and higher energy density than the source it replaced.

Now, today, we face a different problem. We need to turn the energy ship around right now, not 80 years from now. And the alternatives are all more expensive than the fossil fuels they are replacing. Further, of the alternatives we have, most are not of the same quality or energy density as petroleum.

So, we have a unique set of problems that history clearly tells us that the "free market" has never, ever addressed before. Further, we have 6.7 billion lives dependent on the existing energy system.

I'll take my chances with a Manhattan style project rather than wait 50-80 years to see if the "free market" can pull its head out of its ass and do something constructive on a large scale. Childlike faith in free markets didn't help win WWII, did it? Sometimes the "free market" is not the right answer, except for a religious boob who knows no better than to chant a silly mantra.

Comments can no longer be added to this story.
ccpo on May 21, 2008 - 3:12am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Excellent rejoinder. I shall bookmark this forthwith.

May I add an example or two just because?

Medical care in the US: tens of millions not covered; injured and dying sometimes refused care.

Education in the US: Supposedly open and equal to all, but actually highly unequal in quality because it is funded dependent upon wealth of the neighborhood since education is paid for with property taxes. (Not a perfect example, but the financing is supported by an income dependent upon highly unstable market forces.)

Etc.

The "free" market does not address issues of the Commons well.

A simple thought test. If the market can and should be trusted to manage economies, and societies have generally become more "democratic", why is it that wealth distribution hasn't materially changed? Why does it still generally follow the 1/5/20/80 rule?

Why is it that societies based upon community ownership, therefore no economic classes, have higher rates of satisfaction with life?

Cheers

Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Noizette on May 21, 2008 - 11:27am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Free markets are a myth designed to oppress and rip off the subservient, the losers (countries, groups, etc.), the dependent, the poor, employees, etc. Free markets have never existed and never will. (See the US, a very controlled, protectionist, economy in the hands of...) The freedom is on the side of the powerful, those with the guns, nukes, and so on.

Trite tales of exchanges benefiting all (your coconuts or your daughter for my boat) are folklore erected to practically religious status, slathered in ideology and numbers that make no sense, far more powerful than Islam, Catholicism, or Soccer mom principles, for ex.

In a way, it is new religion. An organizing principle that nobody dares contest, everybody has to pay lip service to; making profits is wonderful, except that, on the ground, err -

the profits seem to be extracted from ppl /countries / groups who object; deplete natural resources, and create social strife, and lead to wars...Duh.

The experts (with guns and bombs in the background, and pay offs for the top officials) tell ppl they have to sell at ‘market value’ which is only what the rich will pay.

Russia lost the ‘cold war’, and was subjected to a heavy dose of ‘modernity’ and ‘free markets’ and now the US is going down the tubes for the same reason. The debt bubble (free market for the lenders, impunity in law) will plunge the US into deep recession, or even outright stark depression.

Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Magnus Redin on May 22, 2008 - 8:51am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I basically do not care if free markets are an ideal theory, a halfway working reality, an illusion or a great conspiracy.

Regardless of wich I find it proven that competition driven by the full range of human feelings including opportunities for cooperation is very good for efficiency and change. Thus I find it good that my governmnet has market management and creation as one of the methods for leadership. I want the solutions to global warming and resource constraints to compete with each other, there is no singe winner for solving such a very large problem.

Comments can no longer be added to this story.

103 comments on Hirsch on CNBC: Peak oil problem "as massive as one can possibly imagine"

Comments can no longer be added to this story.

| Show without comments | PDF version