David,

If we removed all taxes and rebates the cheapest form of energy would be coal, and I don't think that would be a good outcome.

Government support for corn ethanol is an example of bad policy (the government "picking winners") its not evidence that putting a price on negative externalities (such as carbon emissions) will always result in bad outcomes.

What I'm arguing for above is essentially a market solution to the problem. Decide what the "bads" are in the broadest possible terms and raise taxes on those. Similarly, decide what the "goods" are and lower taxes on those. Then let the market determine what is most efficient way to solve the problem. If you decided that carbon emissions were bad and honest labour was good, you'd raise taxes on carbon (or fossil fuels) and lower income taxes. If that were the case I doubt the answer the market comes up with would be corn ethanol.

Its true that the government may make mistakes in deciding what is bad and what is good, but there are many examples of things that are unambiguously bad whether you believe in climate change, peak oil, or both. For example, the gas-guzzling 15MPG SUV is bad. The fuel efficient 45MPG car is good. So choose a mileage "zero point" number, say 30MPG, and for every 1MPG below that new cars are taxed an extra $1,000, and for every 1MPG above new cars are rebated $1,000. So the 15MPG SUV becomes $15,000 more expensive, and the 45MPG fuel efficient car becomes $15,000 cheaper.

All of sudden the Prius makes a whole lot more sense.

This could all be achieved in a revenue neutral way by the government taxing and rebating the same amount. As the feebates push the market towards more fuel efficient vehicles the zero-point of 30MPG could be raised each year to keep the scheme revenue neutral.

Carbonsink,

My friend. I must continue to offer up a different opinion. I believe your fears of us moving to a cheap coal based world are unfounded. Firstly, we all know that coal as with any fossil fuel it is finite, and by its very nature is already running out. I believe peak coal is not as distant as some would have us think. In fact I already see evidence of peak coal in many countries and even here in the United States the price of coal has tripled (300% increase) in just the past 24 months.

As coal becomes more and more expensive moving from 4 cents a kilowatt, toward 12 cents a kilowatt, the public is quickly seeing the true cost of a finite energy source. Also as the price moves up, more and more sustainable solutions including, wind, wave, and solar become cost competitive directly with coal power, given their renewable nature. Even in China who has a coal reserve half the size of the United States and a power system which consumes twice as much coal, they will soon hit a price wall when it comes to coal production. A day will soon come when solar is by far the cheapest to produce and the most affordable to buy. In that day we will see a truly market based and individual/community powered transformation of our society.

Again on the subject of "Tax the Bad and Rebate the Good" I must choose a different path of thought. I believe the common man is the best judge and by far the most informed when it comes to deciding what is "Good". Your example policy makes my point perfectly.

In your example let us say that you represent the central agency that in charge of distributing these tax increases and tax rebates. You have outlined your plan to promote the "good" (hybrid cars) and punish the "bad", SUV's. Now let consider the results of your noble intentioned policy. Firstly, your intended effect would take hold quickly, sales of SUV's would fall quickly to almost nothing. The only people still buying an SUV would be those who are extraordinary wealthy. Also your other intended effect would take hold quickly, sales of any hybrid would shoot through the roof, in fact given the generous tax rebate of $15,000 some hybrid's would be almost free and people would be highly inclined to purchase them even if they don't need a new car.

However now let us look at the secondary consequences. As hybrid cars are produced in huge quantities to meet the new artificial demand of having an almost free car, the car makers demand for oil will also go through the roof, since we both know that it takes almost as much oil to produce a new car as the car will use in the first 7 years of operation. In addition given the huge influx of cheap and high mileage cars the local roads and highways will need to be expanded in order to handle the new volume. The expanded road also cost a huge investment of additional oil and carbon. And where people might have decided to car pool before in their existing car in order to effectively double or triple their mileage, they are instead tricked into buying one of these "good" new hybrid cars all for themselves. So instead of increasing their mileage in their existing 30 MPG car to 120 MPG by car pooling to work with three co-workers they instead decide to buy a new 45 MPG hybrid all for themselves. They get a rebate for doing the "good" thing, they save money on gas so they don't need to car pool, and little did they know they just tripled their total oil consumption (new roads + new vehicle + old vehicle still in use). So even though you had the noble intention reducing oil consumption by tricking the people into an artificial system it is very easy to have the opposite effect.

After 5 years seeing the full effect of the new policy you decide as the central agency, "We will alter this policy to account for these unexpected secondary effects." Not so fast say the hybrid manufacturers who have hired many people to build all the new hybrids, "we think the sale of all these hybrids is a "good" thing" they say. And "if you try and alter your policy we will give our votes, PR, and contributions to the candidate that will support a "pro-hybrid" policy." "Don't you care about fuel efficiency or the environment?" they ask.

This is much the same case as with corn ethanol. At first it sounds so "good". The farmers say, "We have all this extra corn, its going to waste, we should take this worthless waste and use it to create a domestic source of fuel. We also have these extra breweries that have been shut down, we could for almost no capital investment, take this waste/surplus corn and surplus breweries and create some fuel." However operational costs are negative (EROEI negative) and there for will not compete with gasoline from petroleum. "If only the government would tax those bad things people do and give us the money we could create some good, domestic fuel and put some money in the hands of the historically poor farmers." And so a policy that was originally intended to help the poor farmers, use a waste/surplus, and create domestic fuel, has grown to such large a scale that more than 30% of all corn in the United States now goes to ethanol production. And if you try and end the tax and rebate system that has created the problem, the farmers ask, "don't you care about the environment or the poor farmers". "Whether or not it creates more energy the industry now employees too many people to change the policy or you will ruin whole communities," the farmers say. Plus you central agencies told us this was "Good" only a few years ago, and now you have changed your mind?"

Try getting elected back to the central agency position without the support of those farmers. Or in your example without the support of those manufacturers you made artificially rich.

I would contend that your pro-hybrid proposal is not a market based solution at all. By taxing one thing and rebating another you have already "picked the winner" for the market because you altered the prices artificially and have given incentives to a different behavior. If you had not interfered and prejudged the solution the common man would have stopped driving the SUV naturally (as he already is) given the sky rocketing price of fuel. And many people would decide to carpool or in other manors conserve fuel and energy in response to higher prices. Instead of buying new cars which increases the total number of fuel consuming cars on the road, and requires a large amount of oil for its production.

We all need more faith in the common man (you and me) to make the right choice. Other wise we will endlessly and futilely find our selves trying to educate and reeducate government agencies on what is "good" and what is "bad", because they're got all our money (via taxes) and we have to hope they make the right choice.

Local solutions, start with the individual.

All The Best,

David A. Johnston

Governments are not good at picking winners.
But they should make the playing field level.
At the moment emissions are not properly costed, and particularly in the case of cola simply externalise their costs.
Likewise many of the costs of suburbia have been externalised.
Any incentive such as for hybrid cars would hardly break precedent by being unique.
The amounts of energy needed to power a hybrid car economy would be small compared to ICC's.
Because you don't like what you think that would imply for the social structure hardly seems a strong enough reason for others not to wish to continue to have personal transport.
At the minimum there seems no reason at all why considerable personal mobility should not remain based on electric bikes and scooters.

David, the fundamental problem with your argument is the free market does not put a cost on negative externalities such as carbon emissions.

I'm sorry, RED, but your claims range from tendentious to the purest crapnonsense.  Starting with the grandparent comment:

I have seen here first hand in the Untied States what Tax the Bad and Rebate the Good means. In short it means 9 billion gallons of corn ethanol....

I'm not sure that supports your claim, because it's an example of "subsidize the bad".

The concept I prefer is "Tax Bads, Not Goods".  Tax petroleum in particular and fossil fuels in general, and cut other taxes to keep the total burden unchanged.  This will change the economic incentives without promoting particular solutions, good or bad.  In particular, corn ethanol would disappear under such a scheme.

Instead by taking the money from individuals you place it in the hands of a few centralized agencies who then must first take a portion of the money for their own expenses and then distribute what is left over to whoever best lobbies those agencies and convinces them that their solution is the best.

If you stop at taxing bads, there is no pot of money to be handed out and this scenario is impossible.

As hybrid cars are produced in huge quantities to meet the new artificial demand of having an almost free car, the car makers demand for oil will also go through the roof, since we both know that it takes almost as much oil to produce a new car as the car will use in the first 7 years of operation.

I know no such thing, because it's false.  Per the Institute for Lifecycle Energy Analysis via the Wayback Machine, manufacturing is only about 10% of the lifecycle energy use for a typical car.  If we allow a Prius to require 25% more than a Taurus to build (150 GJ vs. ~120 GJ) and spread this over a 15-year, 180k mile lifetime at 12,000 miles/year, the Prius at 50 MPG consumes its energy of manufacture in a hair over 5 years (1/3 of its lifespan).  This appraisal is heavily biased by the low fuel consumption of the Prius (a more economical vehicle looks worse even at the same energy of manufacture), and non-consumed energy isn't handled properly at all; energy implicit in e.g. refined nickel can be recovered at end of service.

Hi EP,
Thanks for putting some figures on the energy required to produce cars.
I think it is worth pointing out that the energy to manufacture is largely non-oil based too, as that is our current pinch-point.
I'm just wondering if it is possible to narrow the figure down at all for the manufacture of electric vehicles rather than hybrids, as the weight saving reductions possible in this technology are very large.
I know you will be aware of them, but for the benefit of others who may be browsing this thread, most of the stuff you need for a conventional car can be thrown out, and importantly it is good economics to switch to lighter materials, using carbon fibre and so on instead of steel.You would though tend to use more aluminium, which comes at high energy cost.
The weight savings multiply into even less energy cost in production, as you don't need such beefy suspension where you have a lighter engine, and the engine needs to be less powerful where the body weight is lower, and so on round in a circle.
In view of these savings, would a guesstimate of 80GJ be likely in the right ball-park for a 4-5 seater EV?

The weight savings multiply into even less energy cost in production, as you don't need such beefy suspension where you have a lighter engine, and the engine needs to be less powerful where the body weight is lower, and so on round in a circle

True enough, but range in EVs creates a multiplicative effect.

Design passenger cabin, add suspension, motor and batteries to go 40 km. Light weight (less than comparable ICE by a few kg). Marketing comes in screaming, we need at least 120 km range !

OK, triple batteries, increase suspension and motor size to move more kg. OOPs, with added weight of batteries and other, range is only 80 km. Increase batteries by another 50%, .... closer. One ends up with x6 batteries to x3 range, and almost double the overall weight, but heavier than a ICE car. (VERY rough calcs to make a point).

Other solutions ? Downsize from 4-5 passenger compartment to 2 or even 1 passenger compartment.

One engineering optimization leads you to a "hybrid
car", the eBike. Passenger/motor works with battery (one can afford high tech batteries for such an efficient mode) and a very small electric motor to give extended range.

Another engineering optimization may lead to a 2 passenger titanium EV (titanium, unlike carbon fiber, can be recycled) with fabric seats, charcoal heater, no air conditioner. Expensive structure but fewer expensive batteries. Minimal parasitic loads and weight.

Best Hopes for Adapting Society to Engineering Reality,

Alan

You are of course correct that with current batteries weight savings for the set-up I specified, with 4-5 seats are not possible.
I was trying to illustrate how important weight is to EV's and overstated my case.

I used the example of carbon fibre purely as one example, but a number of composite solutions are possible.
The Th!nk car is highly recyclable, unfortunately I do not have information on what they have used in the structure.

I suspect that cost considerations will lead to many EV's being designed with very limited range to get people to work, even lead-acid batteries with capacitors might do for this, and the cost is way lower than lithium batteries.

For the record I don't see EV's attaining universal coverage anytime soon, but the better off are likely to have the option - nothing like our current, or perhaps I should say the US's current, car based culture though.