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77 comments on US Natural Gas: Lessons from BP's Tight Gas Facility in Wamsutter WY

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Gail the Actuary on June 3, 2008 - 12:56pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I was surprised to see solar panels everywhere I went. It wasn't just BP gas wells with them. Gas wells operated by other folks had them also. I believe they said they had been doing this since the late 1970s.

These solar panels are sitting on the ground, unguarded, in an area where there are very few people. It would be very easy to walk off with them, and I understand that this has happened from time to time. As people have more need for solar panels, I expect this will be more of a problem. This may be why BP is looking at windmills.

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Nate Hagens on June 3, 2008 - 2:51pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

do the solar panels provide ALL the electricity needed to run the pumps, etc? I assume that it is also grid connected? or not....?

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Gail the Actuary on June 3, 2008 - 2:56pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

What grid? We are in the middle of nowhere.

I think there may be some natural gas burned for some portion of the energy in the separation process. I am not entirely clear on this. I could probably get a clarification.

There are some waste gasses that are burned. I know that there was mention of the possibility of using these for energy, but there seems to be a problem with regulators not liking this approach so far.

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robbmcleod on June 3, 2008 - 4:41pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Like Gail said, these are not grid connected. As such, they require unusually large batteries to maintain reserves during the winter months. In fact, they typically mount the solar panels vertically, since that way they shed snow, and the only important months to consider angle of incidence is December/January. Until recently photovoltaic panels on oil and gas wells were the #1 source of demand in Canada.

I suspect the interest in windmills is to try and get more winter energy, and hence scale back the battery packs.

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elwoodelmore on June 3, 2008 - 7:56pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

"do the solar panels provide ALL the electricity needed to run the pumps?"

gas wells are not usually equiped with pumps.
if you are refering to compressors, no these are fueled with ng(hundreds or thousands of hp).
it would appear that the solar panels are for monitoring and control equipment.

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Gail the Actuary on June 3, 2008 - 8:42pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

What you say sounds right. I received a copy of one of the presentations this afternoon, and was trying to understand what it says about electrification.

According to the presentation, electricity is used for monitoring and for what BP calls "automation". Automation may be monitoring, translated to some action when the monitored results are out of a specified range--perhaps what you call "control equipment".

In the description of electrical use, I also found reference to something saying "power for gas lift pilots". BP has a pilot program in which it is temporarily pumping some of the gas back in (I think) in an attempt to raise production. This is related to deliquification. See slide 14 of the presentation. This may be another use of the electricity.

You mention natural gas being used to run compressors. One use of the compressors would be to make gas move through the pipes. Would compression also provide power for the separation process (into condensate, natural gas, water, and waste gasses), or does this happen some other way? I was originally under the impression that electricity was somehow used in the separation process, but I could be wrong on that. Perhaps it was only the pilot gas lift problem that was being referred to.

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plucky underdog on June 3, 2008 - 10:43pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

In other installations that I've seen, the solar cells provide power for two purposes...

  • Wellhead instrumentation (two or three pressures, temperature, a few valve positions, intrusion alarm/CCTV) and associated telemetry (line of sight or cellular microwave)
  • Valve actuators - the solar cells power a small hydraulic pump that charges an accumulator, enough to hold the wellhead and downhole safety valves open and operate the wing and choke valves for a few cycles - the latter might be electrical, don't know for sure.

    • This requires very little power. You could put a small genset at the wellpad, but that would be equally expensive, less reliable (more moving parts), more polluting (noise as well as CO2), it would cut into your revenue stream, and (important!) it would have problems providing cold start service (no gas => no power).

    The solar cells and microwave save you from having to run power and C&I cabling to every wellpad - a considerable cost (and theft risk!) in such a geographically spread-out operation. Solar couldn't provide anything like enough power for any serious process or lift energy input, though you might be able to do something along those lines with windmills.

    "Pilots" in Gail's context probably refers to pilot valves (small valves which allow the main valves to be opened by flow or process pressure).

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    Nate Hagens on June 3, 2008 - 9:45pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    thanks. very interesting.
    I wonder what % of our gas (conv/unconv) is off the grid like that and requires ecosystem services (solar flows) to harvest fossil fuels....?

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    Gail the Actuary on June 3, 2008 - 10:40pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    Clearly everything offshore is off grid. I think they pretty much burn natural gas for power, though.

    I am not sure how one would go about quantifying the rest. Most of the Colorado/Wyoming/Utah/Montana natural gas production would be off grid, and much of Canada that is not in major cities.

    Natural gas wells are so spread out that it probably does not make sense to string electricity to them, unless it is already there (Barnett Shale in Dallas?). I would wonder if some of the shale gas production from Eastern states will end up being off grid. It is very expensive and time-consuming to get electrical grid wires put up, if wires are not there already.

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    wkwillis on June 4, 2008 - 2:36am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    Pennsylvania is so heavily populated and has such extensive infrastructure (from power to phones to water to gas to taverns for the workers) that you can handle things pretty well. The gas in Pennsylvania has the advantage that it is very close to markets and does not have to depend on a pipeline to move it.
    They sometimes don't even bring the gas to market, they just power a diesel generator with the power on site for factories, schools, etc. The waste heat comes in handy during winters.

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    Gail the Actuary on June 4, 2008 - 9:54am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    You seem to be talking about building electric power plants (often with cogeneration, to share waste heat) at the location of the gas. I knew that this was done with coal; I hadn't thought about it with gas.

    The thing that then needs to be built is electric transmission lines. I have seen comments that when new gas power plants are built, the plants can be up in 18 months but the transmission lines can take 5 to 10 years. Hopefully the problem is not that bad, but lagging transmission lines can be a problem.

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    elwoodelmore on June 4, 2008 - 9:27am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    i think your questions were pretty well answered by the posters upthread.

    bp is using gas lift, meaning that some of the wells are producing liquids, either free water or condensate. in a gas lift operation, dry gas is injected into the tubing casing anulus to lighten and accelerate the flow stream, allowing the well to flow. this would require a compressor on site or nearby.

    dehydration would require electrical imputs as well. dehydration is probably accomplished either by cooling the gas stream or by desiccation(glycol absorption). in a desiccation cycle, heating would also be required. the heat cycle would be fired by ng. another means of dehydration uses a "molecular seive". at the very least electricity would be used for operating the process and control equipment.

    those are probably dehydrators shown in the photo.

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    john15 on June 3, 2008 - 5:13pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    that kind of flips things a bit. we rely on solar for our natural gas and maybe soon wind. any geothermal prospects for these wells?

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    Gail the Actuary on June 3, 2008 - 7:33pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    Geothermal I think is a way of making electricity. You need transmission wires for electricity, and that would get very expensive. That is the reason for local generation-solar or wind.

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    john15 on June 3, 2008 - 7:41pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    I'm talking on-site geothermal like they do with some oil wells I've seen.

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    Gail the Actuary on June 3, 2008 - 7:50pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    I was not aware that on-site geothermal is used with some oil wells. It would seem like there would have to be "hot rocks" fairly close below the wells. One would have to have a drilling rig that could dig the well of the appropriate depth. Where is geothermal used with oil wells?

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    plucky underdog on June 4, 2008 - 12:11am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    Where is geothermal used with oil wells?

    AFAIK, nowhere. Anyone care to quote a counterexample? Anyone care to quote several counterexamples?

    Edited after posting - OK, john15 below quotes two (his first link seems dead), but the scale is tiny

    Geothermal wells produce large volumes of dry steam, wet steam or at least boiling water from hot, fractured igneous rock. Lots of heat. There isn't enough thermal energy in oil well or gas well effuent to make it anywhere near economic to harness it - even if the price of electrical power goes up by an order of magnitude.

    IIRC the really hot petroleum basins are on failed rift axes (e.g. North Sea) or hotspots like the South China Sea. Offshore operators aren't going faff around retrofitting heat exchangers, turbogenerators and condensers to production platforms.

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    wkwillis on June 4, 2008 - 2:29am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    Scale is tiny because demand is tiny. Only enough power for one oil or gas well. At this level you consider thermoelectric or solar. The thermoelectric power of condensing the steam from the gas stream is enough to pump the water out of the condenser and into a nearby stream or sump. Solar and a battery seems to be cheaper at this time.

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    saindenver on June 5, 2008 - 10:46am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    Also, please keep in mind that in this Wyoming case, the area is a literal desert. Any water used for goethermal or other steam cycle processes would likely have to be transported to the site. Solar or wind are being used as Gail noted in the main article. One reason for this is the lack of water. Another is that the use of an outside energy source is small during ordinary production and only on demand for safety shut-off.

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    john15 on June 3, 2008 - 11:55pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    I had a video of geothermal coupled with an oil well but I can't find it.

    here are some links.

    http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Geothermal_Oil_Wells

    http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/story?id=49161

    http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/index.php/hydrogen-production/geoth...

    the youtube vid is no more.

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    BruceMcF on June 4, 2008 - 11:23am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    I find it highly unlikely that they are looking at windmills. Import grain to export flour? Use wind power to directly pump ... water? natural gas mebbe?

    Like I say, I find windmills unlikely.

    Perhaps wind turbines?

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    Gail the Actuary on June 4, 2008 - 11:28am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    It is quite windy there. I think there are talking about little windmills, that would help keep the bank of batteries for each natural gas well grouping charged. They may be more like the windmills we used to expect on each farm for pumping water for animals.

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    BruceMcF on June 5, 2008 - 3:04am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    If they are turbines generating electricity, they are not called windmills ... windmills translate wind power into direct mechanical energy for a device, like a water pump or, as in the source of the term, grain mill.

    You are talking about wind turbines.

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    DaveMart on June 5, 2008 - 5:20am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

    Windmill is still a useful term ,as without using it it is difficult to differentiate between the nacelle on a wind tower and the complete structure.
    A wind turbine, strictly speaking, excludes this.
    Words do change in their application, you know, and no-one seriously imagines that any corn is ground in a modern array.

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    77 comments on US Natural Gas: Lessons from BP's Tight Gas Facility in Wamsutter WY

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