Denmark has been pushing wind extremely hard since 1979, yet they get most of their electricity from fossil fuel and have the most expensive electricity in the world. Residential electricity in Denmark cost 1.92 DKK/kWh in 2007, 40 cents / kWh. In the U.S. it was about 9 cents / kWh.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-SF-07-080/EN/KS-SF-...

For 20 years the U.S. completed 5 nuclear power plants a year, at a time when fossil fuel was abundant and cheap. France ramped up to 80% in a similar time frame, and has some of the cheapest electricity in Europe. If wind power is so cheap and easy to build, why are kilowatt hours in Denmark so much more expensive and carbon intensive than kilowatt hours in France?

Wind power in the state of California, was down to 4% on peak for several days during the 2006 heat wave.

http://www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/Wind-heat-06-5pc.htm

The entire U.S. wind output was down 20% below average during the heat wave while the demand was 20% above average. Nuclear power was 10% above average because outages are scheduled for spring and fall when demand is low.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table1_1_a.html

" Paul Gipe: Well, first of all, we do not need to store wind energy…. because you already have storage in any large integrated electric utility system ….

…you have fossil fuels and if you are offloading a generation of electricity, offloading fossil fuel generation, gas or coal, basically you are still storing that energy in the form of the fossil fuel that was not consumed "

Windmills depend on existing power plants and the existing grid to provide free battery backup and power conditioning. Existing power plants are aging and will have to be replaced at some point. If we become dependent on intermittent energy sources we will have to build new backup plants to replace them, and their cost should be included in wind cost estimates.

CO2 emissions for windmills never include the emissions from the backup plants, needed 2/3’s of the time when wind output is low. Including the emissions of backup plants would show that wind is not a very low emission energy technology. With nuclear power plants you only need enough backup to cover the largest plant on the grid, and that backup power is rarely called upon.

The U.S. should increase R&D to $90 billion per year (only 2.25 cents/kWh) and push every technology as hard as possible. That would include building at least one full scale commercial size plant of every promising technology. Actual performance data would give companies and individuals confidence to make rapid large scale investments in new and proven technology.

We should create a totally level playing field by including all external costs and deleting all subsidies for every energy source, and allow prices to rise as necessary to meet the demand? This policy will automatically select the best energy system possible. If wind deserves to be part of that system it will be.

This would accelerate the introduction of practical solutions and is much more sensible than providing feed in tariffs to mass produce expensive immature impractical technology that raises cost enormously while remaining largely dependent on fossil fuel, as Denmark and Germany have proven.

Reducing U.S. emissions is not important. Developing a low cost replacement for fossil fuel that the entire world can afford should be our goal. Wasting money on mass production of impractical expensive systems is counterproductive.

Research and development should not be considered a subsidy. It is an investment in the future, like medical research. Our R&D investment over the last 30 years was barely a token amount; just a small fraction of the taxes our government charged on the production of energy, and that tiny investment is a major factor contributing to our energy problems today.

I'm not sure if I can agree that a level playing field is the best idea. Personally I'd like to see us allow nationalized or heavily taxed drilling in ANWR so we can get that little distraction out of the way. It will happen sooner or later as we race to deplete every drop of petrochemical resources on the planet. All the profits or taxes should be dedicated to renewable resources.

Nuclear is really the way to go. I don't see it happening for a number of reasons. We still have the stigma of Three Mile Island and Chernobyl. Wind already has economies of scale and is a proven technology, it's just a matter of cost and willingness. However, it will not give us more than a small percentage of what we need. Solar is becoming more efficient, but still doesn't have the bang for your buck that wind does. All these technologies should be pursued though, if only for backup capacity and research.

We're reaching the point where we will grasp at any straws available. Carbon emissions are going to take a back seat to maintaining the status quo as we go over the cliff like lemmings.

We should create a totally level playing field by including all external costs and deleting all subsidies for every energy source, and allow prices to rise as necessary to meet the demand? This policy will automatically select the best energy system possible. If wind deserves to be part of that system it will be.

I agree. We should also not provide government-funded insurance or immunity from liability. If an industry is uninsurable on the open market, that, to me, indicates big liability problems.

In my judgment, the energy crisis is sufficiently urgent that I'm fully supportive of immunity from liability and/or subsidized insurance for the nuclear energy industry. The pros and cons of nuclear have been discussed ad nauseum here before. Coal-fired plants have been polluting the commons with impunity, and it seems that comparatively clean nuclear generation capacity should be added and supported by government to keep the lights from going off.

In less than a generation we will have to totally change the way we power our society.
Right now one of our main inputs, oil is in seriously short supply, and gas looks to be getting to a similarly precarious situation very soon, and is rapidly increasing in price right now on the open market.
Coal is likely to be in increasingly short supply in many regions and more expensive, to say nothing of concerns about global warming.
Some don't seem to find these challenges daunting enough, and wish to discard the one fully proven low-carbon way of supplying most of the electricity for a society.
This cannot be sensible.
Any contribution renewables can make will be very welcome, and conservation is even more important, but now is not the time to discard any options, and nuclear energy should be ramped as fast as humanly possible.

Well said. I should clarify that I'm not just in favor of subsidies/breaks for nuclear power generation. I'm also supportive of strong government measures to encourage conservation, alternative sources (wind/tidal/solar/geothermal), and transportation infrastructure such as electric rail. As you say, it needs to be done *now*, which fossil fuel inputs are still available.

A couple of points: first, with immunity from lawsuits, nuke plants will be designed, built and operated with that in mind. I don't trust government regulators, especially the current crop of industry cronies, when it comes time for oversight of something with this much potential for disaster. The threat of major lawsuits and criminal charges will influence the safety aspects the builders and operators must consider. Would you feel comfortable raising your children in the shadow of a nuclear facility that was built with no regard for future liabilities?

Also, by subsidizing the nuclear industry, we would be discouraging conservation. I don't feel like paying taxes just to keep rates low for others. As it is, I pay a little extra on my bill each month for my utility's Green Power program.

If the nuclear industry is indeed safe and cost-effective, it should be able to compete easily with other forms of energy and conservation.

A couple of points are relevant here.
Firstly it is incorrect to assume that other industrial plants bear their full risks.
Any insurance policy has wide exclusions, which come under the heading of sovereign risk.
For instance, a gas tanker has massive amounts of energy, comparable to a nuclear bomb, and is a much softer target than a nuclear reactor.
It could easily take out a city it attacked.
Insurance does not cover this risk. In fact, insurance does not effectively cover anything which is large enough to exceed the solvency of the insurance industry.
The coal industry would already be bankrupt if it paid for the damage done be it's emissions in health terms alone, let alone carbon emissions, so that what is being asked for is suddenly perfection, which as I argue above is an unrealistic target in the very difficult energy environment we live in.
Secondly, a lot of what you are saying is largely related to America. the litigatious environment in America is one which is in danger of crippling many industries, not just the nuclear industry, and even a trivial leak which would damage no-ones health might result in massive and punitive claims.
In my view we ought to be focussing on how to make a variety of energy options work, not finding new obstacles to prevent them.

9 cents per kWh in US? Where? Last time I checked, I paid 20 to 30 cents US depending on how much I consumed. (New York State, total bill divided by kWh)

" 9 cents per kWh in US? Where? Last time I checked, I paid 20 to 30 cents US depending on how much I consumed. (New York State, total bill divided by kWh) "

Yep, that’s because Como dismantled the Shoreham reactor.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_b.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE4DD123FF931A35754C0A...