219 comments on Georgia Conflict - Open Thread
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
219 comments on Georgia Conflict - Open Thread
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
- Thanksgiving Open Campfire Thread
- How Relocalization Worked
- How to Set Up and Run a Bicycle Repair Company
TOD:Europe
- Unique Times -- and the Future
- Peak Gold, Easier to Model than Peak Oil? - Part I
- Carbon Capture and Storage
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- The Bullroarer - Friday 27th November 2009
- International Energy Agency calls 'Peak' on OECD Oil Demand
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- Early Warning
- The Energy Blog
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“Data always beats theories. 'Look at data three times and then come to a conclusion,' versus 'coming to a conclusion and searching for
some data.' The former will win every time.”
—Matthew Simmons, ASPO-USA conference, Boston, MA, October 26, 2006
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
This is going to be interesting. Georgia is the aggressor here... The price of oil would depend on how the world reacts to it...
I think it is early to assume Georgia as the "aggressor" here. This IS Russia we're talking about. The bear has awakened from 25 years of hibernation, and he is in a foul temper!
Russia wins, like Iran, by doing nothing.
Note any "allies" coming into help Georgia?
"To bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO would put America in the middle of these quarrels. We could be dragged into a confrontation with Russia over Abkhazia, or South Ossetia, or who owns Sebastopol. To bring these ex-republics of the Soviet Union into NATO would be an affront to Moscow not unlike 19th century Britain bringing the Confederate state of South Carolina under the protection of the British Empire.
How would Lincoln’s Union have reacted to that?
With a weary army and no NATO ally willing to fight beside us, how could we defend Georgia if Tbilisi, once in NATO, defied Moscow and invaded Abkhazia and South Ossetia — and Russia bombed the Georgian army and capital? Would we declare war? Would we send the 82nd Airborne into the Pankisi Gorge?
Fortunately, Germany is prepared to veto any Bush attempt to put Ukraine or Georgia on a fast track into NATO. But President Bush is no longer the problem. John McCain is.
As Anatol Lieven writes in the Financial Times, McCain supports a restoration of Georgian rule over Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine. He wants to throw Russia out of the G-8 — and talks flippantly of bombing Iran."
http://www.buchanan.org/blog/?p=975.
The US military is spread thin. Putin unlike Bush is no fool. He knows when to strike and where.
DO NOT forget last winter they cut flows of nat gas. This is serious gamesmanship. I think someone like Boone Pickens is who we need in the drivers seat not these Bush McCain clones.
Putin has been licking his wounds for decades. Russia is ready to reclaim superpower status, with energy control as a key part of the agenda.
Russia wants to put the US on notice that its goal of increasing regional influence and boxing in Russia won't work. I imagine Russia wants the US to drop its missile-shield plan, in exchange for "playing nice" for another few years.
However, if the US doesn't back down gracefully and Russia continues to press Georgia, the US will almost certainly press back somewhere, probably a limited attack on Iran's nuke facilities and air-defense network. Unlike Vietnam, though, where both US and Russian actions had long logistics tails, the Russians are playing much closer to home this time around, and they are in growth mode while the US is struggling. They can needle the US without much effort, while the US will be hard-pressed to increase the force level in the gulf region.
Certainly there is an opportunity for this conflict to increase regional instability, and any of the hot locales could potentially involve a few mega-barrels of oil in production.
Boone Pickens is no Jack Kennedy....
The US would never be able to hold Iraq if the resistance there was given modern man portable anti aircraft and anti tank weapons. Or Afghanistan. We can't press Russia. We broke our own leg, and now want to pick fights. Sigh.
Less angry shaking fists, more brains.
The games played with tanks and troops are the obvious ones. It's the "brainy" ones played with money, influence, favoritism, oppression, trade deals, and so forth that are less visible but more significant long term, and which set the stage for the "bloody" ones.
"played with money, influence, favoritism, oppression,trade deals, and so forth "
None of these suggestions seem realistic to me. Who believes our money will be worth anything? Maybe we will gain some influence AFTER we leave Iraq, but how long after? That will be a long time after this crisis in Georgia is resolved.
The danger for Russia in going down the path of supplying anti tank and anti aircraft weapons to insurgents in Iraq or Afghanistan is that many of those weapons would go back to Russia with Chechyn volunteers.
And if America was bloodied by Russian supplied weapons then they may also up the ante by supplying arms to the Chechyns and others. The Russians could only cut off Europes gas as payback and the yanks wouldn't care (payback for lack of support by Europe).
Hopefully common sense prevails on all sides.
Hopefully common sense prevails on all sides.
---------------------------------------------
Yeah -- if they have a bit more common sense then we probably won't be down the path we are right now. Asking for common sense from these folks is like asking them to lay an egg. It won't happen. There is so much pressure to hold up their ego that once a path is taken, it will take a tremendous effort to reverse it. I don't see Russia backing down -- Georgia will have to declare some sort of concession.
For Georgia to declare some sort of concession would be a sign of defeat and a bruised ego for the Georgian rulers (local and American).
I guess I don't have much hope that the situation will be comprehensivly settled. Any short term concessions are likely to fester as a wound under a bandage would, eventually it gets ripped off in pain with alot of blood shed.
Germany official reason for vetoing the fast track to NATO due to unsettled secessionist conflicts.
If Georgia's leaders were realistic they would recognize that Russia will never allow them to regain control of South Ossetia and Abkhazia (it should be obvious to even a politician now)
If they were to recognize them as independent states Russia would no longer have that lever to manipulate them nor would the EU nations have that excuse to keep them out of their clubs.
Of course seeing how doing this would most likely be the end of that leader's career this would require a leader to put his country's future ahead of his career so it will never happen.
"Georgia is the aggressor here..."
What part of Russia is Georgia bombing? How many Russian civilians has Georgia killed so far?
I do not pretend to understand everything that is going there, but the reports of Russian bombing of Georgian areas that have nothing to do with South Ossetia tells me that Russia has significantly upped the ante here.
Many South Ossetians carry Russian passports seemingly, so to answer your question, quite a lot probably.
There are about 70,000 South Ossetians and most (by choice) have taken Russian passports. One could argue that if Georgia has the right to be separate from Russia then South Ossetia has the right to be separate from Georgia?
1989 South Ossetia declared its autonomy from Georgia.
1990 Georgia and South Ossetia began an armed conflict.
1992 Russian, Georgian and South Ossetian leaders signed an armistice and agreed the creation of a tripartite peacekeeping force of 500 soldiers from each entity.
2006 South Ossetia overwhelmingly endorses its split with Georgia in a referendum.
7 August 2008 Fighting breaks out between Georgian and separatist South Ossetian forces. Georgia says its forces have "freed" the greater part of the Ossetian capital. Reportedly Russian peacekeepers have suffered 12 dead and 150 wounded.
8 August 2008 Russian forces move into South Ossetia.
IMHO the Georgian offensive has only been made possible by Western military aid. I do not think Russian forces have been involved in any foreign "adventures" since they left Afghanistan in 1989.
According to Georgia, a day before the attack of Geoergia, South Ossetian separatist forces attacked villages in Georgia (Nuli and Avnevi) causing civilian casualties.
Now, it will become increasingly difficult to deduct the truth sitting on a couch when war breaks out. Both sides will used propaganda. It will be difficult to separate truth from outright lies.
As such, I'd not be so quick to judge who is 'right'. In war there usually are no such parties.
The situation is unfortunate and I fear for more casualties. Russia is unlikely to back down and Georgia is being helped by USA (even if it's in the background).
The civilians in-between end up suffering.
Looks like cold war is rearing it's ugly head again in local theaters.
1,500 in the first two days of the conflict, according to several sources on the ground. Note that an estimated 35,000 residents of South Ossetia, or 50% of the area's total population, have already fled to Russia. They know very well what will happen to them if they were to stay on the Georgian side of the border.
We have to remember the caution about the truth being the first casualty of war. I'm sure the Russians are being told (and believing for the most part), about Georgian inflicted casualties. You can bet the Georgians are hearing something else. We won't know the real truth, until sometime after things settle down. It seems to me that both sides have taken overagressive moves. The Georgians for launching the thing. And it looks like the Russians hitting of military targets within Georgia proper, is overly provacative. Meanwhile emotions on both sides are probably spinning out of control.
Very true! It is very hard to determine the exact number of casualties when there is a messy war under way. At the height of the US attack on Yugoslavia, the number of casualties among Albanian civilians in Kosovo was estimated to be as high as 100,000 by the US media, but turned out to be less than 2,000 once the actual bodies were counted.
On the other hand, the basic facts of the Georgian army attacking Tskhinvali and causing the first several hundred casualties, including dozens of Russians peacekeepers that were stationed there since 1992, are not in dispute (although rarely if ever mentioned in the Western media).
It doesn't matter who started it. I mean, the Korean War was started by the South doing raids into the North, trying to provoke them in the hopes that in an all-out war the US would support them in conquering the North.
But who remembers that now?
It is being reported Russia has bombed and devastated a port along the Black Sea that is important for the shipping of energy exports and is close to the Baku-Supsa pipeline and the Supsa oil terminal.It has also been reported Russia has bombed a NATO base!?
Russian brass are aware of America's plan to wipe out Iranian Euro denominated oil trade and are positioning themselves for the big showdown. We all know darn well this is about oil - the plateau in production is about to decline - and all of the major powers are aware of this.Do not be suprised when China makes a move towards war with America (perhaps through attacking Taiwan) and North Korea makes a move on South Korea. All of the political rhetoric aside - this is not a 'conflict' in Georgia - this is a WAR, and it is an axiomatic war over money and oil.
I have this sick feeling inside many civilians are being killed as we post.
I hope all of you realize this is more than just an economic collapse, peak oil, and WW3; the end game calls for control of every human being on the face of the earth, and it will come to pass.
God help us to understand.
This is a possibility. The timing of it all during the Olympics is quite disturbing. It forces China to stand pat unless it gets "crazy" out of control. I think things will stay somewhat contained while the Olympics are progressing. After the Olympics, either Russia will finish up its aggressive phase of this current move and settle down a bit or this thing will have expanded beyond Georgia (signs this morning is that it is NOT being contained...i.e. Ukraine's statement about the Russian navy not being allowed back to port).
China doesn't want war with the US & has no reason to. With their economic growth rate of the last 30 years, and a population over four times as great as the US, the obvious plan is to build economic power until the US is sidelined. Foreign disputes will be confined to those necessary to secure the required natural resources. In this context, Taiwan is actually a method of the US provoking a war with China if & when it decides one is required. The long-standing US policy is to guarantee Taiwan's security, on the proviso that the cross-Strait status quo is maintained. If Taiwan declares independence, the guarantee is voided. All that would be required for the US to change course and move towards war would be for the US to tell the Taiwanese government that the security guarantee would still stand if they declared independence.
Washington received a setback earlier this year, however, when the KMT returned to power in the recent Taiwan elections, ousting the Taiwanese nationalists on a program of lowing the temperature across the Strait of Taiwan. The prospect of Beijing eventually winning over Taiwan peacefully is a reasonable possibility, especially as the deal on offer is an enhancement of the "one country, two systems" one for Hong Kong. The enhancement is that Taiwan gets to retain its own army - a not inconsiderable factor in guaranteeing the "two systems" clause.
North Korea is nobody's pawn and is a rule unto itself. It attempted to get nuclear weapons because it wasn't satisfied with the terms of China's security guarantee, but seems to be backing down. I don't know whether it achieved what it wanted to or not, or whether its objective had more to do with a change in US policy or with improving the guarantee from China.
In any event, North Korea does not plan to invade South Korea. It does have a paranoid government which could easily be provoked into war, but their plan is just survival. Korea had a reputation as the "Hermit Kingdom" for centuries, so it would sit well with the history if the North Korean government just sits there, heavily armed, and tries to wish the rest of the world away.
The US is still the world's most powerful country, but it no longer has the ability to dictate events unilaterally. The European Union has more coherence than it did and, within it, a now-united Germany is a very strong power. More significantly, there is a range of other growing powers - China, Russia, India & Brazil being the most significant, but also a number of medium-sized countries that aren't as poor as they used to be and are a fair bit tougher to push around. Against any one of them, or even a small number, the US will prevail. If the US gets them all off-side, however, it can't win. It's a tough lesson for the Masters of the Universe in Washington - and toughest of all for the neo-cons who dreamt so gloatingly of a New American Century. What worries me is the thought of what they might do if, in a state of denial, they maintain “business as usual” on the foreign policy front.
In terms of my perspective on events, I condemn both sides in this war. The Ossetians who, like all peoples, have the right of national self-determination, have aligned themselves with Russia for reasons which are unclear and will probably bring them no benefit. The Russian government is manipulating the Ossetians shamelessly and cynically and is being extremely violent. The Georgian government is engaged in its own national chauvinism in refusing the right of the Ossetians to secede and is being violent towards the Ossetians. And the US & European powers are playing power politics for the sake of oil & gas.
Russian warplane has dropped two bombs on the Vaziani military base outside Tbilisi
http://www.caucaz.com/home_eng/depeches.php?idp=1930&PHPSESSID=71795c95f...
Though not a NATO base this is the base where 1000 U.S. troops were based during Immediate Response 2008 last month.
Thankyou for that bit of info.
It sounded a bit alarming when I heard this from a fairly reliable source - hence the question mark.I was hoping some one would verify.
All the oil prices observers are astonished from the stagnation of oil prices , in spite of the strategic position of Georgia with respect to oil transfer from Caspian see to Mediterranean see. All of us remember that the oil prices are fragile and break up easily to unpredicted levels for any political standoff , sometimes, regardless of whether the standoff between the disputes are related to oil industry. The unchanged in the oil prices despite this conflict is key material to study and figure out that neither political disputes nor economic issues are the reason for oil prices escalation but, the hidden powers who don't wish at this moment to show their ugly faces , unless , directly affected by oil cut from this region or they are observing how deep this war will go!